Talking Watches With Adam Victor, Vintage Collector And Dealer

This is the watch that I bought at auction maybe five or six years ago. It's a Vashron, but this is a topic watch made in 1941 in yellow gold with a black galvanic dial. It impressed me initially because of the condition of the watch, which is I mean it's also, you know, quite like new, but super cool because the dial is black and you hardly ever see them. I just find it to be just a really painfully beautiful watch. Adam Victor, welcome to Talking Watches. Thanks very much. Thanks for having me. For those in our audience who don't know you, you're a New York-based collector, also dealer. How did you get into watches in the first place? You know, watches were something that happened for me when I was in high school. Um, there was never like a a thing in my family, you know, like my dad didn't have a watch that was particularly meaningful for him. You know, my grandfather didn't have a watch that was particularly meaningful for him. But I got a gift when I was in high school from a friend for as a birthday present. And it was a steel and gold mato museum piece and which was quite a crazy gift for a for you know, high school from a friend. But uh but I I wore that watch all through high school. I loved it. My friends were like, "What are you doing with with with the gold watch at school, you know, and it was just something about it that um it just amazed me, you know? I mean, I think initially it was it was like the honestly it's it was the aesthetics of that watch that that got me kind of going and but that was just that was the beginning, you know. I think that the watch that got my attention after that was probably a Submariner and then not long after that, Frank Mueller. like I started seeing advertisements for Frank Mueller and it looked so romantic to me and like I I just I had to I wanted to try to experience like everything you know so it was like it was like fast clipped you know like after the first one I just started to like like the world was sort of like opened up for me so I I wanted to acquire and consume everything but like I was in high school and in college so you can only do so much I mean from Mato to what we've got on the table is a pretty big swing in a lot of ways. We've got this really cool Bova. Can you tell me a little bit about this? Yeah, sure. So, the watch was born out of a contract in the mid-50s, right? So, um UDT and EOD divers needed an appropriate watch for the kinds of things that they were now doing and the tasks that they now had. And chief among those things was a rotating bezel, right? Which Bullivo military watches from the Second World War and the years that followed didn't have rotating bezels. you know, they were they they were they were waterproof, but they didn't have a lot of other things. You know, they weren't they were tools, but they weren't as useful as they otherwise could be. So, in the mid-50s, the Navy decided um after testing a bunch of watches and looking at a bunch of different watches that they wanted something that was purpose-built for for these these individuals in particular. And so, they went to Bulba and they said, "Okay, we have a contract with you. Uh we need these particular watches and this is what we want." You know, it had to be waterproof. It had to be robust. You had to be able to wind it while you had gloves on. It had to have a moisture disc and it had to be a magnetic, right? All of these things are absolutely necessary for these very experienced and unique divers. And so, Bulliva created a prototype. Uh, and they submitted a number of watches for testing. And in 57, end of 57, they sent the first three watches in and they failed miserably. Flooded, you know, bezels came off. It was a disaster. And the bureau of ship said, "Okay, you know, thanks very much. um please make three more and incorporate the changes that we need and send them back. And so they did that and little by little over the course of just under two years. They sent in a watch that was acceptable and the last comments from the bureau ships were please send more and then essentially like the order is coming right and Boliv decided that they weren't going to do anymore. Uh and why they made that decision is anybody's best guess. I mean I have a theory. Um but it's really only a theory. I mean in in this in the late 50s, Bolivo was working on something big and exciting, right? So what are they're doing? They're doing Acatron, right? And um and because General Omar Bradley was the head of research and development at Bulla during this time, he might have been privy to some information about what the order might look like for this watch if and when it came. And what the order was going to look like initially was around a thousand pieces. Yeah. So they may have just said, "Okay, not worth the time. Not worth the time. So, you know, we're finished and and we're moving on." But since I saw it, from the very first moment, I've been obsessed with it. This one is particularly meaningful because it's one of two watches that have come from original owner or original family and he's still around and a friend of mine and he thinks that I'm totally insane, which I kind of am when it comes to this watch. So, I have a relationship with him, which to me is amazing. And every once in a while I see him or talk to him and he'll share another story, you know, like, "Oh yeah, I jumped out of a, you know, I did Apollo pod recovery, you know, work with this watch." And I'm like, "No, you got to be kidding me. You did?" He's like, "Yeah." Well, are you writing those down? So you have, you know, have a record of Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to skip to something completely different, which is actually the watch that I most associate with you because I think the first couple times that we hung out, this was the watch that you were wearing all the time and I thought like this is this is this guy's daily wear. Like this is the the the watch that he's kicking around with. PC Steel 570 Briget. So, how do you go from something like this to something like this is is a watch that like you're you're collecting or you're interested in. I mean, it's about aesthetics, I think. I mean this watch is is purpose-built and and it has a story and I find the story to be incredibly romantic but this from Paddock Phipe in this configuration you know you you know uh that steel paddic is something really very exciting and and uh and quite rare but this configuration you know for me is I don't know that there's a more beautiful watch like ever from the brand like I I just think it's perfect you know I don't even remember when I was first exposed to this configuration But I know that one of your very first talking watches with John Goldberger and he shared his 570 3-tone brigade stainless steel 570 manufactured in 1942 three-tone dial with the big bri numerals. I don't know that it was the first time I'd ever seen a picture of that watch, but to see it sort of live and even though I was watching it, you know, it was in three dimensions and the the way the light hit it, it was just it was ingrained in me from that moment like oh my god, this is this is the ultimate watch. Like if I ever had to choose one, like what would that watch be? Uh and so it took a long long time to for the stars to align, you know, but uh thanks to a good friend a year or so ago, I was able to uh to acquire. So, I caught you sort of in the the honeymoon period probably when we like wear the honey the honeymoon's never ending for this watch, but also like, you know, it's not a daily wear watch for me. You you're like, "Oh, it's like a watch you wear to coffee, but like, okay, I'm going to wear something cool if I see you for a coffee." You know, I'm not going to wear, you know, something boring. I want to skip to 13 ZN. Um, just because there's there's a two two really cool watches here. We'll do both of the 13 ZNs, but let's start with the uh Okay, I saw a picture of this watch 3 years ago, maybe even a little bit more, and it blew me away. The condition is incredible, right? It's steel. It's got a black galvanic dial with a snail scale. It was sold to Portugal, so it has an incredible Portuguese hallmark on the lug, which is super cool. You know, I love that they just put it on the front. Like, no qualms about like what it did to the aesthetic of the the wearer looking at. I know there's a stamp on the front of my watch. Import requirement. I mean, it's probably most legible there, right? But also, it's super cool. Like a Portuguese import hallmark, you know, with all the other things. So, when would this have been This watch was u sold to Tacera in Portugal in 1941. Wow. And so, when I saw this watch for the first time, I was blown away. And I was um I I started for the first time to be sort of aggressive about acquiring a watch from a collector, which I was really I was kind of nervous about. And like it felt sort of rude. Um, but I couldn't help myself and so I I continued to sort of nag him and he was very patient with me for a long time until an event in New York last year, Rolyfest, and I had the opportunity to see one of those lonene sort of mati, you know, the the really important line guys. And anytime I would see him, he would share something like this with me, which would get it all kind of going for me again. And he did that and he was not two steps away from me going in the other direction when I was messaging the guy that I knew had this watch. And I asked him if he would bring it to Monaco and uh and he did and you know uh you know one thing led to another and uh at the very last moment I finally decided that uh I I I had to have it and and you know it's it's an incredible watch and the and I've gone down the lene rabbit hole quite a bit since then. Which brings me to something that Okay, this was a a known watch that you had followed for a while and and went after this other 13 ZN is unlike anything that I had seen before. Tell me a little bit about this. So, I guess you have to be like careful what you wish for sometimes. Right. So, like the guys that I chased and was like, "Hey, you know, I'm not crazy. I just want to learn a little bit about Line. Do you have 5 minutes for me?" You know, whatever. I was with one of those gentlemen a couple months ago and he showed me a roll a roll and a half of watches that I I couldn't even really make words. Like it was a bunch of things that like I had maybe only ever seen pictures of and some of them had been photographed and are wellknown and and this one has been photographed and is well known by the Line community. He knew that I was overwhelmed by all these watches and that I could hardly stand it, you know. And I said to him at one point like, "Okay, like I'm totally obsessed with, you know, this, this, and this." And so he just like made a little mental note, you know, and he said, "You know what? Like you're as insane as I am. If I was ever going to let this watch go, like I think that you might be a proper custodian for it." And so this is a recent acquisition for me. And it's incredible for Line. The 13Z is is really like, as I said, an incredible movement, as everybody knows, but this watch with mushroom pushers is a test watch. And so not only is it a 4270 with mushroom pushers and really cool and exciting provenance, but it has a screw back. And 4270s weren't made with a screw back. So this watch was probably made in 35, 36, 37, and 4270s were released with snapbacks in 38 through 41ish. It's incredible for me. I love the juxtaposition of the steel case that's very utilitarian, but also it has this super beautiful white enamel dial with black brigade numerals and like you know maybe you can't see it here but like we all kind of have a thing for brigade numerals. So like you kind of had me at that you know. So from one set of watches that like you say you really have to know your stuff to another set of four watches that are pretty incredible and you always surprise me with what you know not just about the watch but how it was made who was making these. So tell me a little bit about Thank you. cloisn and and how it all started for you. Um, I would go to every preview that I could go to for many, many years, uh, in in New York before I started to travel for for for auctions and things like that and seeing a closet dial watch, you know, when you would see them and people would make a big deal out of them, they would be by Rolex or by Paddock Philippe, you know, and they would always be huge, huge value, you know, I mean, today I think an an important paddic with a closing dial is a is a million dollars minimum and go on from there. And and the same thing is true for Rolex. Some a little more, some a little less, but like they're really high level important watches. Um, and so when I when I realized for the first time that there were clo dial watches that were available for a fraction of the price of one in a paddic or in a Rolex made by the same artisans with the same incredible craftsmanship made dials that went into Esca or into Boliva. It blew my mind, you know, because I can experience all the incredible craftsmanship and beauty associated with that dial for a fraction of the of the price. Um, and so the first one that I that I acquired out of this group is actually not here. Um, but the second one was this one. This is an ESCA in pink gold with a full clois dial and it's depicting the Greek mythological story of Dianisis and the dolphins. I made a silly post, you know, when I got the first one that it's mobile art, but it it is. I mean, the the craftsmanship and the time and and the expertise um that's associated that goes into each one of these is really it's like almost overwhelming. You know, you start with a dial that's made of gold and then to decide whether you're going to do Champl, which is uh you know, this one, which is just the the enamel in the center versus spool enamel. And then to go through the process of choosing, you know, the materials and the colors and and setting the wires and baking it and then knowing that this particular opaque, you know, dust will be after 15 fires will be just the color that I want, you know, and then being able to do that with the full color spectrum, you know, and and to manage it in a way that they come out to be just as beautiful is um well, it's it's it's pretty overwhelming. The other thing about doing this and collecting the vintage is a lot of the enamel, a lot of the material that they use isn't available anymore. I mean, when someone who's an enamelist worldwide, if if somebody's older and retiring or passes away, they sort of descend like a swarm to try to pick up, you know, the last bottle of that one blue that is not available anymore and hasn't been available for 60, 70 years. And so when you're buying something like this, I think part of why it is so so beautiful is because you just can't make them anymore like this. No, I think that's right. You seem to have an appreciation for everything that's not the Royal Oak when it comes to autom. do you do have one that's not on the table here, but talk to me about AP and some of these sort of wild things that are not the first thing that you think of when it comes to AP, but what what makes them so special to you? I have a particular appreciation for watches from the 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s. You know, that that period, which is quite wide actually, appeals to me for a number of reasons, most of which are aesthetic. But some movements from that period were were just extraordinary and complicated and and Ottomar during that time made very few watches and they made them in an incredible level of quality and craftsmanship. The 13line voucher movement that AP was using and decorating in an incredible way. In a lot of cases, no two are the same, you know. So, it's like discovering something every time you see a new automar from from that period. I kind of love the idea that this is a world time made in a 34 millimeter case and there is not another one that looks like it. There just is not. You know, you have to go off of gut feeling and like intuition and experience, you know? Yeah. And so this is an interesting watch to me because it's essentially like keeping a list in your pocket and pulling it out to look at what other time zones exist. Like it does nothing except tell you the time, right? It's a it's a passive world time, you know, with a VZAS movement with a so it's like their precision movement with the with the subsecond is at 9:00 and then the world time register is at 3 and as you said you need a magnifying glass or a microscope to to read it and uh it's a it's a passive world time. So it's like here's your guide, you know, kind of figure it out on your own. Um you have to remember where you are. You can't like you can't you can't show up in a different time zone and then forget okay what time zone am I in? And then yeah, yeah, that's sort of the romance, you know, for for me. I mean, aside from the fact that I find it to be insanely well balanced and just painfully beautiful. Um, you know, it just it hearkens back to to a time where, you know, like, okay, do the best you can with with that information. So, from a relatively simple watch to to something much more complicated, that is, you know, sort of what AP has started to be known for, but not in this configuration anymore, you know. Yeah. So this this is um um this is a watch uh in in white gold made by AP in 1926 um and sold to Bitman in St. Maritz in in 1936. AP made a number of calendars based on this caliber which is the 10 GHSM. This particular configuration has the date in engraved hard enamel around which is cool. Not a lot of these watches had engraved hard enamel with two apertures for day and month and then the moon pace. It's in white gold. It was found probably five or six years ago with this bracelet and there were nine in this configuration. So with this calendar layout and uh only two are known uh two are pictured in their book and this is one of them. So the archive image of this watch is is in their complicated automar book. I mean, that's I think that's pretty incredible that they also to think about a watch like that that anybody I think would naturally gravitate towards or like or try to snap up now sat for 10 years back then, but now if you put that up for sale, it wouldn't it wouldn't sit sit for very long. I don't think that it took a it took, you know, 100 years for people to really appreciate. I don't think it took quite that long, but but you're right, you know. And then we have another calendar watch here, which is pretty incredible. So this one, this is also from AP. This is a full calendar reference 5513 in yellow gold. This watch was made in 1949. You know for me calendar watches from Otmar from this period are some of the most beautiful and romantic watches made. I try to chase them whenever I can. You know the so far the chronographs and have eluded me. You know I hope to I hope to get lucky one day. Um but uh it seems like one person I I saw recently one person seems to be buying up most of them. So, it might be it might be a little while, but yeah. Or, you know, or never. There aren't like there aren't that many to to find, but uh I never plan to have, you know, one rectangular and white and then one round in yellow, but it is nice to have those two, you know, side by side in super great condition. Real quick, just a little diversion. So, this is uh this is another AP, but it brings us to sort of the pocket watch portion. And and I will say I did not put you up to this. I did not pay you to put pocket watches in a talking watches as much as as I love them, but quickly just tell me what is what makes pocket watches actually an interesting proposition for for you. You know, I I I think that um I'm I'm attracted to to pocket watches or I was initially because uh I think that there's incredible value associated with the beauty in these watches. You know, either of these watches in their wristwatch form would be exponentially more expensive, but also they're every bit as beautiful as they would be in wristwatch form. I mean, this watch is actually both of these pocket watches are from 1939. This is a platinum watch from 1939 made by Otmar with a multi-tone sector dial. I just think it's flawless. It's just perfection, you know? It's it's thin. It's just incredibly elegant, you know. Um I always wanted to be the guy that wore a pocket watch and I've never worn one. Uh, and I don't know what that's about, but um I I just find them to be just incredibly beautiful. The platinum is incredible. I mean, it's brushed. It looks like, you know, kind of like steel. It looks a little more industrial, but something that you don't see a lot of people doing now. I think the only thing that comes to mind is D4 doing brush platinum cases on it on his simplicity and and it's not a technique that you often see anymore. And then on the flip side, here's a world time that is pretty interesting. And the fact that it's not a PC almost makes it a little more cool. Yeah. Years ago, I flew to Geneva to go through the Cotier archives and did just a deep dive through every piece of correspondence and letter and sketch that he had. And uh and I left there like, you know, number one Louis Cotier fan. You know, I know I'm not alone. there's there's a there's a bunch of us out there. But um but the the fact that this was a a world time mechanism was something that he had been working on and his father had been working on, you know, and uh and that the workshop was set up ultimately and he had these relationships with these brands to to make these world times. Um I I just find everything about that story to be really beautiful and uh and and and also incredibly complicated. It was one of only five Agassy world times made with the sweep second. So, it's an incredibly rare configuration and also quite like new, which is cool. We have a couple watches left. There's one sort of that from a distance you would think maybe PC reference 96, but then you look closer and there's a couple things that aren't quite the same about this and it's not even a PC. So, yeah, tell me about this watch. So, um this is a watch that I I bought at auction uh maybe five or six years ago. Um it's a Vashron made in uh 1941 in yellow gold with a black galvanic dial. It impressed me initially because of the condition of the watch which is I mean it's also you know quite like new but super cool because the dial is black and you hardly ever see them but this is a top wine watch you know so there were a lot of um movements top wine movements ladies you know pendant watch movements that were that were available and not being used and so like any resourceful company you know you try to find a way to use things and and sell them. So, you know, this movement uh was put in encased in this watch and uh and sold as you see it, you know, and it came with bracelet came to me on the bracelet. Anyway, I just find it to be a really painfully beautiful watch. If there's one thing that I also really think about when I think about you, it's it's your ability to sort of hunt for things that either people aren't necessarily paying attention to, not really looking for, but you you don't seem to leave any stone unturned. And we've got a watch that the first time that you showed it to me a couple months ago, I think you didn't even really fully know what the story was. And so now it's another one that a lot of people are wondering who got it. This watch is um is a perpetual calendar made by Jeel in 1935 and sold in 1938. It came to auction in the UK with a really small estimate and as soon as I saw it I about fell out of my chair. I didn't know really much about it. I mean the dial isn't signed. The movement is signed of of course and so it was a bit of a a mystery initially and one of the first things that I did was reach out to the brand. They thankfully were as excited about it as as I was. They've studied the movement and the dial and the case and uh and they've said to me that they're aware of four perpetual calendar watches that were made by them during the period. Only four. Wow. One is not even a complete watch. It's just the 410 movement um that's in their collection. The other is a picture of a perpetual calendar rectangular um that they don't know where it is, but they have an old archive picture of the watch. Okay. The third watch is the rectangular watch which is the one that was sold at the auction house in the UK four or five years ago and then this is the fourth and they said that this watch was made by the same watch maker who made the movement that they have. Wow. Which was Victor and Beay. Yeah. Um so for me that was super cool right? I mean and sort of all roads lead back to Victoria at that time. You at that time if you want a complicated watch that's this is the place you call right. So to know that this movement was built in the same way that the 410 movement was that they have was really a big deal. And the watch has a very cool uh and and rather extensive provenance. Um and uh there was a gentleman named uh Sir John Alerman first baronet who was a shipping magnate and the richest man in the UK when he was around. He passed in 1933 and his estate was valued then at 36,000 pounds which is like over three billion dollars in today's today's dollars. His son and daughter inherited that money and in 1935, Sir John Ellererman, second baronet, placed an order for this watch and then received it three years later in in 38. And this watch stayed with him until it was passed down to caretakers of his and then ultimately put into auction. But uh it was owned by you know what the papers used to call the richest man in the UK at the time. So, it's got some some pretty cool provenance and I you have to be I think at that level to order a watch like this in the first place. It's pretty incredible. Last but not least, and I asked you if we could talk about this watch because I think it sort of for some people might say it throws a wrench in this entire collection in some ways. I think it just speaks to how cool Reard Meal is. Even if you're a guy that gravitates towards stuff like this, if you have an opportunity to pick up an RM6702 at retail, you kind of can't say no. So, what what was it about this looking at all of that that you thought? So, I I I I don't know. I mean, I like to think that I have a an open mind uh when it comes to all things. I'm not sure that's entirely true, but but I was at a um I was at a dealer's office um before co with a with a buddy of mine and he was there to pick up a 5711 in Rose and we were sitting in the showroom and we were waiting for you know everything to sort of come together and the gentleman who was there said uh Adam there's a box on the table in front of you just entertain yourself you know open it up and entertain yourself like oh cool so I open it up and inside are like a dozen richer meal and like I was not interested like I They didn't have like there was nothing about like I thought they were maybe sort of cool but they they weren't really my it wasn't really my style I I guess you know um and I never really gave it a chance. So I thought okay I'm here. What am I doing? There's a dozen watches, crazy watches in front of me and I just reached over and picked up the 6702 and was immediately blown away. Like I did not expect how light it was going to be. I didn't expect that I was going to be impressed by the quality of the watch and the design of the watch. And it felt so modern but also so different, you know, and it's open work, you know, so like there was so much about it that that sort of that felt modern and cool but also sort of hearkened back a little bit, you know, it is a tano shape, right? So So very similar watches, right? Very similar. Right. First of all, I I'm really grateful to a friend for making this happen because independently I never would have been. I I'm not an important person when it comes to watches and allocations. I'm not the guy that gets the phone calls all the time. It doesn't happen. Um so this happened only with with help from a from a great friend and uh I didn't take it off for a long time. It it made me smile in a way that you know all these watches really make me very happy. All all watches do at all price points, but it was fun in a in an entirely new and different way. And it it feels super modern. It also feels very forward and it just is a ton of fun. I mean, I love watches where you look down at your wrist and you see a watch that you forgot you were wearing, maybe like an ultra light watch like this, and it makes you smile. I mean, there's something to be said like this whole thing is to to get enjoyment out of the hobby. And any any watch that makes you smile, I think is is valid. I think, look, if if somebody like you with watches like these is also falling in love with the 6702, I think uh all the better. I think it lightens everything up, you know, for me, you know, it gives me the opportunity to to have fun in in a in a whole new way. So, yeah, I love it. I love it's it's great. You've got a a wide ranging collection here and a lot of really interesting things and things that I you know one or two things that I would love to someday be able to ask you if I if I could maybe get. But for you, what's next? What's on the horizon or or what's a holy grail for you that you would love to finally get or find? It's a hard question. Um and and there's no easy answer, so I I won't I try to I'll try to give you the a bridged version. Um, I think that the Holy Grail is probably something that I haven't seen yet. I'm not aware of, you know, I mean, the the Jesuit, the perpetual calendar for me is is is incredibly interesting watch. So, like, what's going on with that? You know, I know that there are a number of Scholes watches that were made that are complicated watches or splits by Scholes, watches that haven't been found. And so, I would love to find something like that. Um, you know, I I've have a uh, as you can see, a particular appreciation for clo. Um, and and and world times aren't really well represented on the table, but I have a real passion for those as well. Honestly, a 1415 clo paddock world time is a grill watch for me. Uh, and uh, so, you know, unfortunately there aren't a lot of those and around and I'm not likely to find one anytime soon. I mean, we both saw the Eurasia dial. Yeah. 1415. It's a watch that I think anybody with any means would really have to reach deep into their pockets to get something like that. So, it's a very important watch. But I guess that's what makes it a grail, right? I mean, so like if it were super attainable, like it could be a grail for me until I got it and then like what's the next one, you know? It just feels like really far enough away that that it can it can just stay and remain a grail and and that'll be that. I appreciate you showing us all of these things. It's a it's really a a fascinating collection. And it's a fascinating journey that you've been on with your watches and and I really really do appreciate you sharing it with with all of us. Well, I can't thank you enough. It's uh it's been something that I never imagined that I would have the opportunity to do talking watches. So, it's an incredible honor to uh to to share this stuff and to to be with you guys. So, thank you.