A Look Ahead To 2025 - Part II With Rich & Mark | Hodinkee Radio

welcome back to another episode of hinki radio today's episode of the show is sponsored by our friends at Brook Lotti the award-winning whiskey from Isa who we have partnered with here at hinki for the last couple of years stay tuned for an update later in the show on what we're up to this season hello and welcome to another hinki radio episode it's actually our last episode of the year and the fourth in our year end Series so we did two looking back at 2024 we did two looking forward to 2025 I've already recorded and you'll be able to see the one with mikica and tantan uh check that out on YouTube or certainly on the site um but check out the previous episodes for sure and now we've got the final episode of the year and I've got editor and photographer Mark kerich and editor Rich foran joining me today to chat all about uh kind of what we think of 2025 what we're excited about what we're kind of concerned about where we think things are going guys you know we spent the last episode with you two really chatting about what it looked like the trends had been for the last year I'm interested in what you what your sort of predictions are even at sort of a broad level if there's something from this year that you think won't work next year something we'll see more of next year if there's a play that feels you know I feel like the playbook for the last several years has been vintage inspired design for a lot of watch brands does that Playbook still feel relevant do we think there's a new one where do you guys land on this maybe uh Rich you want to you want to take it away yeah thanks James um I had a lots of questions in there I think the I think the topic on on Vintage re-releases or inspiration um we're seeing things that have a bit of vintage inspiration already but are moving things forward um I think the industry as a whole is lacking in new designs and some of the smaller brands are coming in with vintage inspired things that feel very very new so it doesn't have to be like an RM or some crazy huo to be a new Fresh design to the watch world I mean there's a lot of like open space to run in when you look at watches so um I would expect continual tying to Heritage product with Brand Story and product story but offering something that's truly different and trying to move things forward um which I think the watch World could use a lot of how about you mark what do you think you feel similar yeah I mean you you asked what I was concerned about um I don't know that we have enough enough time for that and I don't know that it's on topic for this podcast but the end of year this could also just be the Airing of the Grievances let's let's just get into it now um lights a cigarette um yeah I mean I I have similar sort of General concerns I I don't know that rich framed them as concerns but like there is there's so much repetition and um you know I think a lot of people might be surprised at the number of um you know cold emails and pitches and messages to my uh Instagram and messages to my personal email which I specifically the only place that's listed I specifically say don't send watch pitches to this email but people still do it anyway and I would say like 80% of them look the same it's it's hard to imagine that when we see things like buron or other brands coming out with creative things and I think that's great and necessary but it's so hard because you don't want to be mean to people that are trying really hard and doing something new but it's hard to for me to sit and look at somebody and find a way to say like your dive watch that looks like everybody else's dive watch isn't maybe necessarily the thing that the market needs right now or might not be successful I I do have a concern as we talk about like the trends of the market uh economically and and a lot of like Heming and hawing about downtrends and prices going down I'm a little worried about um how many micro Brands smaller Brands like this brands that aren't bringing something unique to the table will survive in 2025 um so not to start out or end the year on a depressing note but that's something that I've been thinking about for a while yeah I think that's a that's an interesting concern and I think there's a couple examples here of like things that I predicted years ago that of course I was just like dead wrong I thought that we would have been totally tired by the Vintage Trend now and instead we have a major brand relaunch launching Universal genev clearly we're not tired of this uh as as a whole maybe it works better with ug because they're they straddle the line with some sporty elements but very dressy as well versus you know a purely sort of mid-century sport watch brand and then at the same time I I think I also said that yeah probably 2018 2019 I thought it was going to be a pretty tough out time out there for micro Brands especially those in the you know the budget categories the kickstarter Brands things like that and it feels like they've also enjoyed quite a bump in the in the resulting years from uh the increase in attention during the pandemic but then also into what we've seen post pandemic with uh kind of a lot of price sensitivity bringing more Focus to these brands that are able to make a watch that people can be excited about for 1500 bucks or less something like that yeah now now that price sort of that that price point has moved up a little bit I think you know it's it is harder to keep things under $1,500 we were we were talking about this for a year end Recaps is you know give me a couple extra100 and I can find something pretty good but that budget Mark is is harder to meet I I do have I have a question for Rich actually is somebody that pays attention to the Vintage Market secondary Market um these sort of Revival Brands and stuff I assume that 2025 will finally be the year of urban jurgenson um we've been waiting for a while we missed I think the 250th anniversary I still see a lot of come up for Market a lot of dealers asking about them Carol posting Urban jurgenson all the time a collected man just posted one is that a sign that there's still demand is it people trying to get ahead of hype by like Gathering resources and holding on to them or do you think Urban enson is gonna actually have like a a pretty successful launch when it happens yeah I think it gets into a topic of like how brands are doing re launches or Urban uron is of ined by brand whenever K decides to come out with it which you will never hold him to a date as we've learned but what I like to think of for vintage inspired Brands and this gets into ug as well is that like the long jeans Playbook from 2014 2015 is been played and does not work anymore like they did a great job they were probably the best Big Brand to bring back a Heritage line that was super inspired by things and make it a little bit bigger make it wearable make it palatable to their customer which is a more consumer level customer but also draw in the attention from enthusiasts who maybe can't find that vintage thing or think it's a bit too small um I think that playbooks done I don't want eug to do that Playbook nobody does but it's still a very very fine line to walk um we'll see what eug does obviously uh they've already done one watch which is in very low quantities which is more of that one to one Playbook but I understand that's not the direction going forward which I'm almost I'm glad to hear you know I'd rather you see that name be used as something to move watches forward with a great heritage to tie to rather than just hey you don't want to go on eBay and buy ug you can walk into his store now how about that like I don't want that nobody wants that on the urban uron topic um you know interest is still growing uh rose gold reference three just did I think 65 at Phillips or SES in New York um which is a really good number for that watch I think that's the number they should sit at it's a perpetual calendar it's really really amazingly finished um from the dial hands and case perspective but I think there's a bit of speculation going on the interesting thing about your Urban uron to me is the man that owned or was very involved in Fr he didn't own it um Peter bom Gunner did but his best friend was Dr helmet crop who is still very active in the Watch scene I was in Geneva um the first night I was there I was shown by someone actually works for a collect demand a what was told to me as a unique white gold reference three which is when you find him in white metal it's most often Platinum um and he was showing it to a couple people around this party I was at and I was like that's really cool I wrote a whole story about reference twos and threes never saw one in white gold before ran into helmet crot the next night and he's like oh yeah we made like 10 15 of those I don't remember exactly how many but definitely not unique so it's interesting when vintage collecting gets this point of like when whenever we think about truth in vintage collecting it's always like in this distant past which you could never know it's almost like archaeology but with Urban jurgenson but the guy who bought the backstock and all the archives is like still around so you can ask him which I think actually can kind of hurt a brand when information is Super S in stone like that or you know whether he's willing to give it or not it was just to me and conversation he might not even like me sharing it here but um as a collecting sort of community I think it's better for the market when things are a bit more like Rox than they are patac where it's like yeah you know this case and this dial come from the same year let's accept that that's correct whereas patc is like if it's not on the extract that's not your dial um which urban eron should it sort of mature a ton that style of collecting um is probably more towards the patch side of things where we know what the watches were when they were first made um when I look at car's relaunch I tried to get information out of him when I wrote that article I think it was about a year ago I've tried times so don't don't worry that you didn't get much even so much as like are you going to use the same lugs which are very unique on Urban jurgenson from the 90s that I love so much like the very small like turtle LS but super super tiny teardrops and he was like I won't even say that much so I mean we'll see the direction uh the giae dials that were in urban nson made by Derek Pratt and his team probably will be carried through zari's iteration because that's you know also his specialty but beyond that I'm just waiting and seeing and I'm not going to I'm not setting the calendar um reminder for that one we'll see again special thanks to our partners at Brook latty for the support of hinky radio this holiday season we've partnered with Brook ly on a special giveaway that you can learn all about in the link in the article below or in the notes for this episode you might be surprised at what you see and you most definitely don't want to miss it and now back to the show one thing that we touch on while getting into the urban jurgenson line there was pricing of watches these days do you guys think that there's a pricing problem I we definitely see it in the comments where pretty much any watch comes out at almost any price and the push back is like hey I'm interested in this but like why this number and there's a a new level of price sensitivity that comes from the level of inflation and other things we've been experiencing outside of just watch pricing but it I think it also has an effect on watch pricing and I think that in many ways it feels as though pricing has kind of outstripped uh the normal kind of growth that pricing can go through over a period of time where do you guys land on on pricing because value still feels okay but there's definitely examples of stuff that feel real spicy it's tough to say because uh there's one watch in particular that I talk about a ton I every time I look at their website it seems like y we can get get an extra $500 out of you we can get another $500 out of you and I like I look away for two seconds I come back and it's $500 more um and that's not really how it is but when you set in your mind like oh this was good at you know 10,100 and then it's 10,500 and then it's 11,000 the last time I looked at uh this watch and it was it's the SLG w003 the manual line gr SEO that's crept up yeah and it literally just came out this year so I was a little I was a little surprised at that but then there's also I think the hardest thing maybe for some people first of all like understanding that your frame of reference for what a watch is worth is formed when you start looking at that watch and maybe if the watch or that framework of watches whether it's speed Masters have been out for ages and some people have been looking at speed Masters for 10 years and thinking oh you know speed master should be X price and now it's X plus2 or $3,000 um you're going to feel that that hit for the pricing a lot more and then the other side of it too is when you compare against other people on the market or even within the brand I think it becomes very easy to become very price sensitive and a little surprised um I I mentioned maybe to you James the other day but I was going through the Rolex catalog and I did not realize that there's only like a $600 Delta between a Date Submariner and a GMT and that starts to feel a little strange as well like shouldn't the GMT be significantly more complicated shouldn't it be I don't know if it's a GMT should feel more expensive or a Submariner should feel more like a more entry-level budget option or something like that a little more value in there but okay um I think people are paying a lot of attention to all of those little things and any little movement any little thing that you can pick up on in terms of pricing feels really big lately we're also just seeing new watches come out at what feel feels like more than they would have come out at a just a couple of years ago so it's not just the progressive percentage added onto a line of successfully working watches you like new watches come out and you go like well okay I guess that's the price like the speed master that uh I wrote about the pilot speed master I think people were sort of surprised at the price on that and it's what I is sort of what I was alluding to when when you're used to a speed master of some sort being worth you know maybe say under 8,000 and a new one comes out and all of a sudden it's significantly more than that even though there's nothing uh you know that you can do a direct one toone correlation for a new model even if there's small changes like mechanical this one's an automatic it has 100 meters of water resistance or whatever but you you've sort of already framed your expectation of what a a a speed master can be and even though those have now crept up over $8,000 you know something that's getting closer to 10 just feels really sort of outside um what you're used to whether or not it's a good value for the specs or whatever yeah Rich what do you figure yeah I think on the modern watch side obviously is what we're talking about here where the brands let me down a lot of times is that I I do not think that these large modern brands are hurting for margin um so yes you can give them excuses of inflation costs being higher um and they just pass those right on to cons consumers without wanting to I mean with wanting to sort of maintain their previous margins which we don't know for a lot of Brands but I I know they're they're very healthy right like I would like to see a bit more respect of price of bands by the brands to not push themselves out of something just because costs are rising given macroeconomic factors I can come to this question from like I used to work on the shop side and be more on the merchandising and buying side and I can give credit to a former colleague sa omura here um she was a master at pricing when we did our vintage drops and we would have conversations all time of this is a great watch it has to be under seven because once you creep over s even if it's $7,200 that you're asking you're asking someone to spend 10,000 you know it there's certain barriers in watch pricing where it starts to become feeling like you're spending more and if you keep it under those barriers it feels like you're spending less for example like 38 is way closer to spending three grand than it is to spending five grand mentally even though you're spending five grand like after tax after everything um there are these certain and excuse me if I'm getting a bit too high-minded but we used to think about it a lot is like what is the psychological process of somebody clicking that buy button and if we can move the price couple hundred dollars and make someone feel a lot better about their purchase then that's not a return that's also a happy customer you know like there are C certain things that you can do specifically on the we would do that work on the buy side with the seller and say hey can we knock 100 bucks off this price we want to keep it under here so it sells quickly and we have a happy customer Brands can do that too where they say we're going to give up a $100 $200 of margin to make our customer feel a bit better by keeping a speedy what is it under seven Grand instead of a little bit over like that's a big barrier am I right there I think last time I checked Speedy pricing but plus or minus a thousand I think but okay yeah I mean the same psych like psychology can apply to the difference between seven and eight you know those especially when you're under 10 grand it's very very sensitive even a couple hundred bucks um and I would like to see Brands respect that further I don't think they need to I don't think they will but I'll just call it out and say something I wish they cared more about no I and and I like I like the position of like making the recommendation essentially like you you this is something people should be focusing on I I just think you know there's eras everything's a a push and a pull right the swing of the pendulum and there's areas where price sensitivity is very low 2021 2022 and there's areas where it's quite high and I think you know a lot of us can remember even like 2015 2014 uh we saw a like a lot of kind of adjustments to the market in terms of pricing and that sort of thing and I I'm I'm definitely curious to continue on this trend of like how we might approach these sorts of things so like just for fun for 2025 you're going to be and we've got a handful of Brands I've got on a list here the CEO of a brand what would you do to kind of like fine-tune something that feels like it would be a good move for 2025 why don't we kick it off with like a brand that absolutely crushed it in 24 with tutor if you guys were if you guys were going to be in charge of tutor for the year or whatever would you just carry on the same is it more Formula 1 is it less Formula 1 is it more Pelos which has definitely been in the playbook for the last year or is it last now that that Line's quite uh broad uh what do you guys think I I have some hopes and tutor's an interesting one because I I feel like every once in a while they give you exactly what you want um I think the black Bay monochrome was kind of that and it was sort of proof that it's okay for them to run into Rolex a little bit I think there's been some skittishness the last few years of of tutor being like we don't want to come too close to giving you a perfect version of the Rolex you can't get um so let's give you something that has a little bit of odity or variety we still saw that this year the the black Bay 58 GMT is something that I would have probably immediately bought um if it had the you know styling of the black Bay GMT with the Pepsi bezel and you know or even even if they had done the white dial version of that you know but the guil and everything like that I think turned a good number of people off of that watch and sometimes that feels like what they're trying to do um you know making sure that people think long and hard about what they want whether it's you know do you actually want the Rolex or are we going to give you a budget of something that budget pick of something that's going to compete with that um I think you know I heard the feedback from the fxd GMT I don't really again I don't necessarily see that as Fatina I see that as a design choice um but I also see a world in which like if that was just a a a black watch with a lot less color and stuff it would have been a mass of a much more massive hit with people so if I was you know in charge of tutor which would probably make me I I don't understand their corporate structure but it would probably make me in charge of roets as well so I guess it's a copout but I would I would I don't want to use the word confidence because I think they're doing a lot of really bold things and confidence makes it sound like they're not but like have the confidence to say like look we're not going to be competing necessarily for the same market share and so if I'm doing a budget version and I'm giving people exactly what we want we are doing the best thing for our customers who probably aren't going to be buying a Rolex every day anyway I think the overlap is not as big as they are afraid it will be um okay so that that would be my pick for tutor all right Rich you feel any differently a different strategy in your mind I actually feel quite similarly um Tudor does annoy me with their use of color and Fatina and on products that if used in a much more toned down color palette would be better products almost like unanimously and I think that gets into the Rolex not wanting to compete with Rolex thing and wanting to give people an option that's lower price point and has a bit more color is more of a unique sort of motif I guess it would be but uh I this Mark's thoughts actually brought me back to like a vintage story that I've heard um when when Rolex switched from Hollow folded and Link oysters to solid and Link oysters they updated the tutor Submariner as well which at that time was the same watch just with a ETA movement and it was all black you know there was much more similarities between tutor and Rolex at that point than there are now um but they updated the tutor oyster to be solid link as well and they saw a decrease in Rolex and Mariner sales I mean this is of course just a story story I don't know the actual numbers but um you do see as you move further into the 9s they actually revert tutor bat to a folded link oyster to make it feel cheaper and to sort of drive more people towards the Submariner from Rox um which I think gets into a lot of the psychology of what tutor and Rolex mean to that larger brand or Foundation however definitely is set up now yeah definitely at the time I think I think that philosophy I think that the connection between the two Brands is quite different than it was 20 years ago um you know follow following the relaunch in the US to sort of tie up that point I think Tudor and Rolex are more split now than they were ever in terms of where they're thought of in the market I think when somebody's new and into watches they might say oh yeah Tor is the sister brand of Rolex and that's why people sort of start to get interested but I think their customer bases are so different now um that Tudor could do more to release products in more Rolex colors like the black Bay monochrome and not be so afraid of stealing market share from Rolex which is just not happening like if you look at the colors Rolex uses which are very very toned down very Mass Market the Pepsi and the Batman and Sprite I mean the Sprite feels crazy even it's just green you know like um I think tutor could use some of those more mass Market colors and be more successful while also not stealing any you know Mark and share from Rox yeah yeah I would agree I would agree if I I was put in charge I'd say let's just try and do a couple more really conventional watches uh you know I think they have such a strong lineup of options and then even though that's strong and it's you know they they they Garner a huge amount of attention in the industry and the rest of it then they launch something like the what we all call the monochrome the for the 2024 41mm uh black Bay and you just go like yeah but this is this is the one like it took them however many years of 12 years or whatever uh to kind of dig into that and and I think they they just made a great thing and I would love them to take that formula and apply it to the GMT and apply it to the the 58 in general and the 54 and all this sort of stuff and just kind of keep iterating in that space and you know hope hopefully we we can we continue to see some cool kind of avant guard thinking in the fxd space I think it's like the fxd being a sub brand of the Pelos gives them some room to play around whether it's a you know cycling chronograph or a or something as wild as as like the uh the proper fxd um GMT and that sort of thing so I think there's lots of good uh on the horizon for them and I'm excited to see it and I mean obviously we can parlay this right into Rolex we've got a handful of Brands so I'm going to say you got two or three sentences what would you do with uh Rolex this year mark Daytona single tone sub dials no oh yeah no I mean that's that's for me that that would be it I mean look they only did one steel sports watch last year uh at watches and wonders which I think really people didn't process um yeah steel Daytona like Gan with the the single tone sub dials um is basically I think everything that anybody's been asking for I don't care about the lollipop indices on the sub dials or any of that I don't need the red on the bezel just give a classic looking Daytona back to the market and um I mean rooll it's is printing money already so I guess I could say they'll be printing even more money but um that would be it for me so thanks Rich yeah I think there's a few small tweaks that Rolex could make to already existing products like the Submariner I I just think of it because Jeff hilard is always complaining about the clasp on his new Submariner in the office Rolex like still leans into wanting to create a professional product for this imagined consumer that's diving deep with their watches um doing the exact thing that you're supposed to be doing with their professional models um which is the reason why that clasp is so big and long because of dive extensions and wanting to you know feel like a very Stout product for that honestly imaginary consumer I there I'm sure people are diving sub there's a handful for sure but it's it's not not to the extent that the Submariner is made that's two two very different numbers I don't think you lose much of that consumer or that wearer and like big part of your brand identity by making the small tweaks to make a watch like the Submariner a bit more comfortable for everyday life and I think that sort of thinking can be trickled down throughout their whole catalog for those professional models like hey guys we don't have to be so so professional anymore you're making a watch that's I think Mass market for the most part and uh debatably luxury According to some of our team members but um yeah I think that is long gone for roll out you know and they're not making a watch for scuba divers anymore and they could do a few small tweaks I would also say like within the world of rolex's lineup they also have the pro the the pro pro diver in the SE dweller so I think they would have room to actually make the sub a little bit more cushy if you will uh I I would love I would love to see what the next eventual evolution of the Explorer 2 is uh you know we haven't seen a new you like a fully new take on that model in quite some time um but I'm I'm not playing that the guessing game we'll get to that in you know March or whatever when we run that story with all the photoshops but I think I think it's an exciting time you know with you guys on the call I would love also like uh again try and keep it keep it tight so we can get to a handful of these but what about pek is there something you would just maybe maybe we go this route doesn't have to be the CEO thing what's just something you would love to see from pek you know in a recent um in a recent video that Ben did for the UBS thing he spoke about wanting a really genuinely highend take on a time only pek something with the finishing from the higher level models and in a very Tech forward movement and that sort of thing is that would you guys just pair it like is that something that's kind of universally felt among pek fan base I would just say simplify for protect like that's all they really need to do is um they have for for a brand that makes so few watches in the year they they have a lot of models they can simplify you know also simplifies maybe some of where they're drawing inspiration from in their history and you know look if I could if I could have anything if I could do like a slightly smaller QP chronograph um with like a vich case you know that's not a very it's a complex movement but it's not a very complex demand um forget like triple Ste cases or whatever but just like simplify and give sort of a little bit more of a classic taste and sure a little bit less you know what do you think Rich yeah I think Ben's call out is basically he wants patac to make a wretch up or something on that level um I would want a similar Ling and feeling product but at the other end of the pricing Spectrum I'd love to see pek come out with a viable um less than 38 39 millimeter Kat travo that you could enter the brand with they just don't have that product right now they don't have the entry level this is what protect is time only watch um which I think is desperately needed okay cool I I agree with those for sure what about uh what about Cartier I know certainly Rich you just did a great story for the magazine volume 13 reference points on the tank LC what would you love to see from you know we had a party at cardier last year we were all in the room it was a very busy day and they had a lot of watches what would you guys love to see you know come March April from cartoon C does a lot of what I would already wanted to see to be honest I think of modern brand they respect their Heritage maybe the best um that being said they respect their Heritage the best at the high price point cpcp stuff I would like to see that level of thinking and that level of care and um honestly sizing and like case thickness the effort that they put towards that cpcp level product is for the consumer like me who is really knowledgeable about their history and understands how those vintage and even even from the 90s cases feel and how they wear on your wrist um I'd like to see that trickle down to the more commercial product like a santree that you don't have to spend 80 grand to buy would be amazing Mark what do you figure for cardi that's about what I would say I think again like they they do a lot of really respectful things with their Heritage I every year they come out with something really interesting I think it was the kusan that was like the watch that you could press and it would move and you know it was that was kind of a scary thing to witness in person this like cushion watch that you could compress the case it's a pillow and you can push on it but it's set with diamonds and stuff like the most expensive tide pod I've ever held just like this is terrifying you know then they do they do their you know rewind this year which I think a lot of people thought that they were crazy for um when it came out it's crazy idea it and now it's like in a lot of people's picks for you know I think GQ mentioned it as one of the best watches of the year I think a lot of people have come around to it as a crazy idea um I think that kind of thing but maybe make it slightly less limited slightly more accessible I also like this is a really random thing and maybe they're doing it for like high-end clients and I don't know but bring bring back the like super wild 1920s cardier mystery clocks I don't know who wants them I don't know like who wants to spend a million dollars on a jade mystery clock but I want to see that like sitting in the center of the watches and wonders display and just be like okay cool they just brought back this thing that people are going crazy for on the auction market and they're I think they're very aware of what the market is is doing so it would be kind of fun to see absolutely I got I got one more for cardier um Sapphire or blue cabachons on white metal cases I just do not like the Ruby or red cabash Platinum watches all right interesting well there you go a few tips for for cardier there look the next one is one that I think is it's a whole different ball game than than what we've been talking about but what about with Swatch arguably the kind of the impression brand on the internet of the last couple years thanks to moonwatch and then uh in some ways also scuba 50 Downstream of that what uh what would you guys love to see from Swatch I talked about this with Malica and tantan and they had some ideas for watches they would love to see be Swatch ified like in the same metric as the moon Swatch and the scuba 50 if we're even dreaming outside of the realm of the swatch group what brand do you think would would offer a really fun platform for that sort of exploration and that sort of um move to bring a brand that we would know as watch nerds down to a level where a lot like a lot more people might be interested in experiencing it lining up for the product and all that kind of stuff yeah I I don't know about like doing a moonwatch related collab or something like that but um one I I know that they've put some online I'd like to see them start putting more of these releases online for people um I think you know now that they've slowed down past the Moonshine releases being so frequent I think the pace is pretty good um so yeah I mean I don't I don't know what what I'd like to see is more options just in their General lineup I know they have a ton of a ton of watches out there um but I went into a SWAT store with my mom actually a couple weeks ago and was looking for something that might fit her and just like there weren't enough smaller op options there weren't enough things that really did anything for her I was going to buy her one just as a fun gift and and um you know so a couple more options a couple more fun things a couple more simple things just continue expanding the lineup now that you've got the eyeballs on the brand and again like look you they know what they're doing with the moonwatch thing You' James you've said it like people ask us to stop covering it we'll stop covering it when they stop stop reading it you know um the amount of clicks and it's not all about the clicks but does show that there is a level of interest when that stuff comes out who am I to say that we shouldn't cover that rich what do you figure yeah on the collaboration question I'm still trying to think but um I don't know why this one popped ahead popped to M but um they've done a chronograph they've done a dive watch I'd like to see something a bit more interesting on the dress side um like a dressy Swatch collaboration I think would be cool I don't think it would be nearly as popular as something like a moon Swatch and um but like I don't know why this one obviously it's in the group but I actually really like Harry Winston's aesthetic the case that mimics the front doors of uh their I think it's their Flagship Boutique I'm not sure I don't even know what that they call the name or this case these days but it's very like architectural and um I think they might sell four and three to me but doing a moon or a Swatch collab with Harry Winston in that case I think would be really cool actually a hariry Swatch yeah yeah it's got a ring to it yeah and it's a totally different product than what we're thinking of probably but yeah I uh yeah I I think it's a fascinating thing to kind of dream about other brands that this could that I think it could work on I think the craziest one in my mind would be rehard Mill like a Swatch rehard Mill uh something that captured the case shape in the architecture but rendered it not in you know Nano tubes and tpts but rather in uh in bioceramic you know obviously the the issue there's some issue there with to really replicate a rishar Mill you usually have some insane complication or technical s of evolution or or even just like skeletonization so some of that could be kind of difficult but I do kind of like dream of that I think I think hublo would be an interesting partner for for them as well like to do uh a little big bang or or even something more wild something in like in a little bit more of a conceptual space could be really fun uh you know I I I don't think the idea is going away I think this would be a crazy time for them to like go ah we did enough it's all good I think see more speedies I don't know if we'll see more Blan Pond I but I'd be surprised if we didn't see more speedies down the road from from them and and I agree with Mark the the thing that I would be changing if I was in charge would be I I get like if you just launched the brand new one and it's for a specific color of the Moon sure yeah it's it's store only for the first month or it's store only and they sell them out and you don't have to put them online but with anything that's not limited like just sell it online let people buy it I I had one last idea with this watch thing and I thought about it because I have this watch um from a retailer in Japan and I think it's something that they could maybe do but um you know you said they've done other complications what about a like push button minute repeater Swatch you know get somebody to make I I have a quartz minute repeater it's so cool and it literally it's Shellman retailer yeah shman in Japan we'll put it in the show notes you guys have to see this thing I jaw jaw dropped for not that much money when when you showed it to me yeah I mean they're they're harder and harder to find because they were made in the I think in the 90s late 90s maybe but um but you know it's a Miota movement it's a quartz movement and it h it's a digital chime so it has that digital like almost eight bit quality but it kind when you door open on your Chevy Lumina so so why why not do do that if you're swatched like I'm sure it would maybe be a $500 watch but I'm sure they figure out a way to make a you know a beeping sound out of a a watch and then all of a sudden they've got some sort of minute repeater I mean that's a really fascinating idea because it takes it kind of takes the moon Swatch idea and flips on its head where they're taking an iconic design and like a cultural element in making it a Swatch and with this imagine if it was a Blan Pond or a brigade or something like that where you could really tap into the structure of some very traditional watchmaking and introduce that as the platform for new enthusiasts I think that could be that's actually uh that's cool I like that idea uh look we are running the clock though so I I just wanted to leave it up for the last five minutes or whatever we've got anything else you guys are like looking forward to next year something you're excited about I'm kind of like I'm stressed about it to be fair but I'm also kind of excited to see what watch and wonders is going to be like after last year I think it's going to be I'm expecting some fireworks would be my guess yeah I mean I think we were sort of told going into watches Wonder last year that this year was going to be kind of tame yeah um which or whatever yeah and it was you know people people holding back 2025 nice drawn number you get something interesting coming out I think that's fine um until the you know it's like you put off a deadline and all of a sudden you you have you have 14 assignments that are due at the same time like it's kind of exciting to see and and you hope that it's it's going to happen but now I'm a little stressed about you know if you've got 12 brands that are going to have the biggest year you've got an anniversary for Vashon 270th you've got an anniversary for AP so there I think there's going to be a lot going on the other thing is is when you say stuff like that it it does push the expectations up a little bit um you know and so it's it's very possible that like it could be you could walk into watches and wonders and have the uh the like Christmas day uh sort of situation where you open the package and you're like oh socks you know like you know you got really excited you told people what you wanted and that's what you got which I've started to reach the point in my life where socks aren't a terrible gift but socks are a great gift but uh but if you're expecting a yak back the socks are tough you know yeah yeah the only one on this call old enough for the yak back understood okay fine how about you any any final Mo final thoughts for 2025 um I'm just thinking about my sort of what I called 2024 which was the year of the shaped watch I think um 2025 might be the year of we're tired of the s shaped watch enough shapes I'm just I'm just thinking of uh the actual buyer and someone who's interested in something like that is pretty thin and I I sort of hesitate with especially the larger Brands um if they shaped watches on the floor at watches and wonders I think we're in we're in trouble what sort of trouble I think people will just get tired of that Trend and revert back to round and like more standard designs pretty quickly um I I'm not calling it because I think there's something else going on with the crash Market but if you look at the way the crash has sort of trended downwards it's telling me that um the buyer for things like that at the highest level is not a very wide market so um I think if if micr Brands continue to go into that space and and look into different shapes although I'm all for it I'll I'll love them every time um I think sort of the mass watch world might sort of flinch if uh if Brands and smaller Brands continue to enter into this shaved uh like interesting design Le uh Market set nice yeah good feedback and a good thought I had the shaped shaped trend on on the list and we didn't quite get to it that's how these pods go I'm sure we'll have lots of uh fresh conversations in the new year but I wanted to thank both you guys for coming on and closing out 2024 with me popping champagne now is this how it's going let's do it yeah I don't this will probably run like right around New Year so one of somebody will be getting some champagne for sure I should have had like sparklers or something ready for the yeah you guys didn't bring caviar and champagne is that we'll just have we'll put all that in digitally it'll be okay we'll use the AI it'll be fine but yeah thank you so much for listening and to you guys for coming on the show and if you're listening and want to get in on the conversation about what you think 2025 is going to be like what your favorite parts of 2024 were major watches releases your hope to see next year the rest of it hit the show notes and you'll find the comments just below that on hoodink key.com and certainly a great conversation over on YouTube as well so thanks so much for listening this year and we'll be back in early 2025 with more take care