Inside The World Of Watch Auctions With Sotheby's Global Head Of Watches Geoff Hess | House of Craft

I must say that when I see all the faces I know now why I didn't retire because how can anybody retire from a passion I don't know our economy and the gender inequality will catch up as a brand we better be prepared for that last time I saw you you were actually talking about watches that belong to your father yeah this is all your fault yeah you guys I said it in the video and my intro thanks for bringing it up but this is all your fault I didn't care about Watchers until you guys put all these videos gaming the algorithm pretty much yeah thanks for everyone for coming uh I'm rich foran editor with hinki and I'm joined by Jeff Hess Global head of watches at soues Jeff thanks for coming totally a pleasure really thank you one question I've never been able to ask you even though we've been friends for a long time is how you made your way to watches as a career and what was before that well um it's a longer story than perhaps most people would have um I to some degree feel like I have to expunge my resume I'm I'm 55 years old and I'll explain what I mean in a minute um I'm born and bred in New York City other than College I've never lived anywhere else um I've always loved watches so I've been a watch collector for 35 years um but I grew up thinking I was going to be a lawyer and sure enough I went to college I went to law school and I started practicing law in New York in a very large Law Firm um and in the late 1980s i interned in the US attorney's office under a guy named Rudy Giuliani um so I stayed with Rudy for 14 years and again at one point that was a something I regularly bragged about and now I never talk about it um and and I'm leading into the answer of how I got into watches so how I got into watches I have Donald Trump to thank and what do I mean I somehow caught lightning twice because after 14 years of working alongside Rudy I decided to resign to become the CEO of Ivanka Trump's jewelry company so I have to expunge the next four years as well um in 2016 um I was very proud of everything that was accomplished with ianka I did not know Donald Trump and he had just started running for president I didn't think he was going to win but I saw sort of the the writing on the wall and some of the damage that it was doing to the brand quite honestly and that's not being political that's just fact and I wanted to sort of go out on top with a good relationship with Ivanka and it was at that point again not knowing Donald Trump that I said you know what I'm go it's 2016 I'm gonna go into watches professionally because it's my greatest love in life um and it was at that moment that I took uh the CEO job at Analog shift um which was ultimately bought by watches of Switzerland sounds familiar um and um yeah so that's my background and that's how I sort of got into watches professionally and I sort of still pinch myself that I'm that I do get to do this every day um as my job and during that time pre 2016 what was it like being a watch lover in that world sort of lawyer lawyer adjacent was it normal for someone to be wearing a nice watch what sort of Brands were you interested in where is your love where did it start you know for me collecting watches introduced me to a giant community and my first entree into the watch Community was with Panerai Panerai from the very beginning and and you know despite how popular or not popular that brand is in the secondary Market it benefits from an enormously loyal community and that was really a GameChanger for me because I you know it's funny I'm born in in BR in New York and I know New Yorkers love to say boy if we can make it here you can make it anywhere um and we think we're so worldly and we know everything the truth is I kind of felt like I was to some degree a sheltered city boy I grew up on the upper east side of Manhattan um but because of watches I can now very proudly say that I think I have a bed to sleep in in almost any major city across the globe it's not to say I Avail myself of those beds um but um it's really spectacular um that I have met people from all over the globe over so many years um because of this great thing called a watch community and I genuinely have panai to thank um there are lots of stories as an aside I'll just digress for one second my wife is in the back corner in 2010 I walked into the panai boutique to get a trap changed and the person that did it I ended up marrying so um so I even found my lovely wife um through that through that uh Journey um and one of the reasons why I'm so happy to be here is it really reminds me of the old school days of community um I definitely think back to the hinki summit from 2015 I was just looking at pictures and I'm I'm sitting looking at dusk and I just showed Ben a picture from 2015 sitting next to you at the hinki summit how cool is it that it's 9 years later maybe nine and a half years later and we're sitting doing another hodinky Summit in essence um very cool and I think that's unique to our hobby unique to our industry and just super super special and I just feel very blessed in that regard the idea of community always comes up with you Jeff and I know you start started with panai as a collector but now knowing what's on your wrist and what's in the watchbox plenty of other brands what is the through line between those Brands and what has brought you to what you're collecting today so there's no question about it you know on Instagram I'm Manhattan Ry and I founded Roy Fest and you know Rolex is probably the brand that's nearest and dearest to my heart um so my journey sort of in Broad Strokes started with Panerai um and there are connections the Vintage Panerai watches from the 50s and 60s for example had Rolex movements made by Rolex so there is a natural um Synergy between the two Brands to some degree and so that was my journey I spent years going to the Rolex passion meetings um always abroad lots of travel meeting people and then eventually um I started really discovering other brands you know in Earnest um I'm a big langa fan I'm wearing langa um so you know there are just a lot of brands that I love but the journey really started the deep deep deep dive started with Panerai and then I really dove into the deep end of vintage Rolex and speaking of deep Dives what is it about vintage Rolex that attracts a collector or attracts other collectors from panai why Rolex one thing that makes vintage Rolex super special and the word that comes to mind is scholarship to a large degree it's like art history you could literally spend decades a lifetime trying to study every reference in the in the Rolex catalog studying all the dials the different iterations the seraps on the dials the different hands the different bezels the different types of dials the cases even the bracelets I loved Tak taking that deep dive that's really what it means for me the word deep dive is really about study and scholarship it was a different era in those days there was no Instagram and most of the interaction um in the watch Community outside of hinki and and and you know individual rooms was through forums which largely either don't exist or are sleepy now let's just be honest and in those days um there was a bit more scholarship if we're going to be frank um than there was today and I actually worry about it because I know the greatness of Instagram and I've met so many people through social media but the reality is it's very fast content it's a lot of pictures it's a lot of swiping it's press like and move on and it isn't the best laboratory for learning um if anything I might say it's a laboratory for certain things we don't like like jealousy and envy so we could spend a whole hour talking about that um I you know I'm a big Instagram proponent and it's connected people but there is to some degree it represent a dual edge sword and it has a um um sort of an underbelly of of of diminishing scholarship and I sort of worry about that to some degree I think a lot of the pictures we used to see are going to someday be hog iic somebody's going to discover wow photo bucket I look at those photos you know and and and um you know I don't even know where mine are so yeah I think that's interesting the speed of social media um may have led us in the direction of a topic we' talked about a couple of times which is the hype watch um how can we slow down then because we can't go back to the forums well one thing that I think a lot of us are disc discover covering now um is I've been saying recently that the fun is back in collecting um and what do I mean and this relates to hyped watches there's obviously not dissimilar from other asset classes there has been a relatively material pullback in prices in the last year year and a half I actually think it's a welcome sign of course nobody likes to look at their watch box and say it's worth less today than it was that's not fun but the truth is people that really love watches were often heard to say this is not fun anymore I can't buy any more watches the hurdle is too high the barried entry is Too Tall and I'm just you know I'm done um and to be honest I said that so with this material pullback what we're seeing is a number of enthusiasts that were buying I'm not going to say for the wrong reasons because who am I to judge but they were buying for different reasons there was a lot of speculation and a lot of people buying watches legitimately because they could make money quickly and and they could and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that and I still believe in watches as an investment class um at least to some degree but it isn't why most people buy watches most people do not buy watches to make money but that became a more significant part of the equation than we've seen in recent years if ever and it led to um these new words like hyped watches I never heard that word five years ago that's a new thing and um we all know sort of how that's unfolding it doesn't mean that buying a royal oak or a 5711 isn't a good thing those are fabulous watches they're iconic for a reason um but there are a lot of people that just bought them and bought them and we saw those prices double in a period of 90 days 100 days and that really wasn't I hesitate to use the word healthy but it wasn't the best thing for the hobby so what I'm seeing now is there's a lot less speculative buying and I think a lot more buying from enthusiasts that love watches not for the right reasons but for different reasons and that's really around passion and Community which is why um actually in my role as Global head at sou bees um I I think I'm focusing on embracing this concept um more than ever before I think the days of auction houses attracting new buyers um by just showing a multi-million dollar vintage Paddock here's a $24.99 you know I think that's a little more limited and I think now what we're leaning into at Southern is storytelling and narrative and content frankly a lot of what hinki has done so well over such a long period of time I think that hasn't been necessarily the theme at auction houses we typically like to think oh I there's a $5 million Paddock 1518 oh my goodness you know that has its place and I wish myself a lifetime of finding those because that keeps me that keeps my job um but the truth is I'm not really confident that those are the most interesting watches anymore and the most interesting stories um I I'm leaning into and we're leaning into it s's um watches with provenance and narratives and stories because I believe that the collector that's buying um especially now for the reason that I just love watches that he or she just loves watches I think he or she wants to read more about that than anxiously sitting at home wondering if the 1518 is going to go for three million or four million which they can't afford anyway so um spending a lot of time focusing on watches with stories narratives and it's been a lot of fun right and we'll talk more about your role and hang with me here while I simplify it to something it's probably not to you but you work for an auction house your job is to sell watches and offer watches for sale talking about hype watches and the reasons why people buy it's really easy for someone like me who his job is to talk about the World of Watches but why is it important to you to make a statement about the reasons why people buy and almost curate your buyers when ultimately your job you shouldn't necessarily care who's bidding it's a maximization effort but I know that's not how you think I think the watch community Embraces authenticity and we're all just regular people again most of us aren't buying watches to make money we're buying it to have fun I don't need this and by the way I don't even use it to tell time when I want to know what time it is I pull this out so I you know this is fun for me it's an incredible passion to some degree an addiction I'm definitely the guy even now at midnight I'm in bed on my iPad scrolling you know I will always do that um so I think it's really more about trust and authenticity and at the end of the day people are entrusting me and entrusting SES with very valuable assets and they've got to know that you're going to tell the truth that you're going to give proper advice um and I would never take a watch and put it in an auction that I wouldn't do um Myself and I think if you stay that course um you earn people's trust and you you have less of the tension um related to the question that you've asked yeah I think community and honesty is really what comes to mind for me with you um I'm reminded of Roy Fest which um for people who don't know is a massive Gathering of collectors um in New York City those sort of events happen all over the world constantly and I know we were talking about a couple you've been to recently your focus on this idea of community but also it's important for you I've been to roly Fest I saw the kind of press that is there why is it important to you to let people know that you're doing an event like that and not keep it insular I think if I had to describe roly Fest so roly Fest is a a big Gathering of collectors um and it's really about shared passion and I've always said that any passion is meant to be shared and that to me is a great joy in watch events watch events can be 10 people and that can be great or they can be as large as roif Fest which was 175 people from 17 countries and for me it's really more about shared passion and it's fun to share that with people and it's fun to say look at this thing we've got I also pinch myself I mean when I think about our auction our last auction in New York we had 1,400 biders from 54 countries those are exact numbers was 144 biders registered biders from 54 countries how cool is that that the entire Globe is looking at little pieces of metal on our wrist that we don't need they're doing it because it's so much fun it's so great so rif Fest it's a great story for me to tell I'm so proud of it because it's really a out um being in a room with like-minded people being in the community I can see a whole bunch of people here or you know we're in the room for it for the last one it'll the next one's in September of 2025 um but yeah it's really more about shared passion um and sort of in that same Spirit um you asked the question that is frequently Asked how'd you get into Watchers how did it all start I remember at r fest last September saying to everybody we're always and often asked how did it all start where did it all begin but we're rarely asked where did the road take you where did it not end but where did the journey take you what was the other side of the journey and for me that was the defining moment of that big event and I'm honest about it it was super proud for me to look around the room and say oh my God this kid this city boy from Manhattan just invited 175 people from 17 countries and they flew from all over the world totally non-commercial I lost a lot of money everybody pays their own way um I literally just divide up the bill by however many people are there and that goes to authenticity um you know there's no brand there's nothing being sold and um that was a really a proud proud moment for me um not just for my career but for life and um you know it tells me that maybe I did something you know that was that was good and unfortunately only 170 people can go to something like roly Fest but talk a little bit about what you're doing with your auctions and in person um I was at the last one you served hot dogs at intermission I've never had that at an auction house before so why is that important you know I think I think the days of just white folded chairs and and paddles being raised in the air is is a little too old school and the truth is that the auction world is attracting a far far younger Community now which is great onethird of our biders were jenes and Millennials um that is fantastic That's so exciting that's why there's 54 country's bidding um again most of the bidding is online or on the telephone there's maybe a hundred people in the room but it behooves an auction house and we're definitely leaning into that making the auction room experience fun and it should be like Community again the watch World maybe to some degree dissimilar from other asset classes and other Hobbies does benefit from Community we like to be together we're buying this because we just love it we like to be together we like to share we like to tell stories and we ought to recognize that and apply it to the auction room so what we're trying to do is to create a much more communitybased um frankly fun environment and um yeah I'm really really working on that yeah and it's not only the in-person experience but also the way your cataloges are crafted can you talk a little bit about how what goes into creating a catalog at sou bees and how I'm able to notice that what you're offering is different from what I knew before at s be is in the other houses right now well for one thing again we're really leaning into narratives and stories and I kind of believe that it's more interesting to talk about a great watch with provenance that's $80,000 than the $8 million um vintage you know watch that set another record um so we we are doing is really leaning into content more than ever before our auction rooms have I think the last sale had 11 videos where we're actually doing many films you know you can't have an auction that lasts three days so you have to keep them short and sweet but we are producing videos of 90 seconds 2 minutes about watches and making our watches come to life through enhanc photography and content and we're even leaning into in the last auction we had an intermission which we don't typically do and it wasn't a f minute water break it was like an hour um and that was in an effort to create a little bit of a party in the room because we want to have fun um and I think that's critical um so you know we are focusing on content narrative scholarship um things that a little bit of are have uh lessened over time and we're we're trying to tell stories and bring back the fun in collecting um and I think it's working and from the watches in the catalog perspective how do you keep someone's attention and how do you build that catalog out and make sure that there's enough in there to keep people keep people interested the stories and so on and not just you know $100,000 watch after $100,000 watch look I always tell the truth I don't I don't have a store that I can go to and pull watches off the shelf and say I think I'll take six of these for that auction six of these for the actual auction to some degree it's what we can unearth and what people are going to consign to us so I'd be lying if I said oh we should take a lot of credit for curating this all you know there's some curation there is there are theme sales there are elements of Storytelling that will lean into to for example um we are going to have a portion of our catalog it's going to be called Hoyer Champions and you can call it a Hoyer theme sale but it's not really what we're doing is we're going to celebrate an iconic brand um a brand that has this incredible tie of Motorsports and focus on the drivers the people that wore them so the nucleus of that sale is a Steve McQueen Monaco from the movie leemon It's one of the eight that were used in the film and you know there's that iconic picture of Steve McQueen wearing his Monaco in the film that so many watch people have seen so that we've crafted and created and curated a bit of a theme um within our catalog it's not an entire sale it's probably 30 40 watches um of Hoyer Champion watches what you know there are lots of famous race car drivers Kay razone um cfer uh um rent andred they all wore hayers so we're going to lean into that and tell that story lots of those watches by the way are 10 grand um so it isn't the best for business um soube is not going to make a lot of money on it but we're going to Galvanize a community it becomes very interesting a lot of fun and that's just good for everybody why does the story Trump the realities of vintage Hoyer not being hot right now I think um what you're what we're recognizing is sort of some of the things that I've just sort of said that people love stories and narratives um I mean think about the McQueen is a big deal watch so the estimate is 500,000 to a million um that watch in the absence of that provenance is worth 10 grand um so you know there's a huge premium for giving people that emotion of being closer you're putting the Jersey on them um again that's not unlike a lot of different um Hobbies but it's a lot of fun so it's super cool to um to embrace watches with great stories that people get excited about and narratives um and not just focus on the money this has been a little bit overplayed but I did an interview in 2018 for a publication and I talked about how collectors were struggling to find an equilibrium between passion and investment and what I mean is and this is very relevant to Hoyer um in the days of the forums years ago if you even said the word investment you got a slap on the wrist it was like taboo you buy what you love that's it period full stop as watches got more and more popular prices went up they got more expensive and it suddenly be became very fair to ask hey is this an okay place to to put money if I need to sell this watch can I get out of it fast enough is there a market for it will I make money will I lose money very fair questions so the equation started to shift and all of a sudden investment played a you know a part of that equation well I think what we saw in recent years was an unhealthy shift where the a large an un uh you know an uncomfortable level of that equation piece of amount of that equation was investment and too many people were buying with that in mind when the truth is most people want to buy Watchers because they love them so now what we're seeing is this the fun is back there's a Resurgence in buying things that we really love and that's really again the very best part of watches it's the stories it's the people you're buying the relationships you're buying the narratives the watch is just the bonus whether that's too extreme maybe it is but you get the point um and Hoyer is a great example of that and watches with provenance are not easy to find I know you say the catalog is sort of what comes in the door um why all the extra effort to find a watch with provenance and what happens when next year there's not one available you know I like to think that there usually is something special the community is very deep um you know sitting here we have a very very exciting pair of watches that will be announced very very soon and it comes to us because my friend Christian who's sitting in the front row here it's a total coincidence called me up and he said I know this guy that's got these two watches you got to meet him no way I would have met him so the community is tight we help each other um I'll go out of the limb and say I don't think there's going to be a Souther be auction without watches with provenance and stories that's a big part of what we do and I think people recognize that and they come to us um Tom Brady did it can be we just finished I had a great thrill last June selling um a suite of watches from Sylvester Stallone um that was brought to us by another guy in the room Ralph Luca sitting in the back um that's what this community has done I mean that it's pretty extraordinary that randomly all these people are in this room even today um so I'm going to go on a limb and say Rich it's not going to happen we're going to have watches with stories and provenance every season it's it's the heart of what we do it's really the the the greatest reward for me to be able to to have those experiences uh just because you brought it up I mean that's good to hear first of all um just because you brought it up what was it like working with Stallone it was fabulous it was so great first of all he's a terrific guy um he's you know I'm going to just flat out say it he's legendary Rocky was 48 years ago and is still incredibly relevant so we're approaching the 50th anniversary of Rocky and Sylvester Stallone is a a terrific guy he is a regular guy completely and unlike some celebrities if you will um he absolutely loves watches and he really know watches he loves the details um he collects a lot of different brands and it's just a lot of fun it's like being with a regular watch guy um he it certainly wasn't about the money sell his selling watches obviously he wasn't exiting watches he wasn't dumping he's got a lot of watches and like any normal watch collector there's some that come in and eventually some go out it doesn't mean you don't like them but sometimes taste change and sometimes it's just just about hey this is sort of I haven't used this in a while this would be a good one to sell you know he's a responsible guy and he's you can't just keep them all forever um so nothing wrong with that and I really really had fun being with him and frankly seeing the way you know everybody embraced it we did a a video of his talking at saes and put it on YouTube last time I checked which was north of a month ago it had 1 and a half million views so that was a total career thrill um it's the second time I had the privilege of working with him and it really was a privilege I I sold some of his watches when I worked at Phillips in 2020 um but this was a little bigger and a little better and a little grander I remember speaking to you before that auction before the catalog came out and uh I asked how everything was shaping up and you told me I'm looking for a top lot I uh still missing a top lot did that come together last minute um what's that search like when the catalog is filling itself out you don't have something that's highlight level you know it's a good question um and I struggle with it every season first of all what defines a top lot because again we so typically associate top Lots with multi-million dollar watches and why is that because the truth is that's you know you have the same 10 people bidding on them for the most part um and again I really don't want to sound negative about those watches those are those are the trophy pieces you know those are your build Billboards but I think we've gotten very accustomed to saying top lot has to be multi-million dollars I'm not sure that's necessarily the case but with that said of course I worry about it at every catalog do we have a real attention getter um and I think I'm growing more comfortable with the notion that an attention getter can be a $100,000 watch that's been in space or been in the ocean or you know and it's it's really more about how interesting a story can we tell because at the end of the day I think that's what people are attracted to arguably more than more than anything else to stories that you've been able to curate so far you've touched on Celebrity and maybe athlete with Tom Brady coming up and hopefully Motorsports soon is there a story a watch that you know of with a story that you're hunting for or even a community outside of watches that you'd like to touch on and bring into the sure I'll give you a great example of one that's completely not announced no big deal um it happened the day before yesterday um last week um a gentleman in his 70s came to sbe's um unannounced without an appointment and with no watch in hand and he broke out his iPhone and said I have this old Rolex what have we got here and it was a John play player special Rolex Daytona um for those that don't know a Paul Newman exotic dial Daytona is very valuable and very very special it's black and gold it's beautiful he actually said I think this is worth like $10,000 um he he literally said that now he didn't have the watch in hand so we said please come back I said I'm going to Hong Kong I'll be back on Sunday and he came to the office this week this guy had an uncle who died in 1998 of AIDS in New York and he took care of him and when his uncle died he um you know willed the watch to him the watch literally this gentleman and his wife they live in Brooklyn and the watch hand on my heart has been sitting in a freaking flower pot since 1998 and um we just put an estimate of 500,000 to a million5 um on it so I'm very excited it's not the first John player special we've sold it's not the first one we've ever seen but what an amazing story it's not a celebrity it's not Tom Brady it's not Sylvester Stallone it's nobody um but he's going to write a long letter of how he got this watch and the notion of a million dooll watch sitting in a flower pot in Brooklyn how great is that so um it's not just just about star studded celebrities it's really it can be anything it can be a 75y old man living in Brooklyn with something special he didn't know you know his whole life's going to change um and that's just so exciting and you know everybody roots for somebody like that um yeah so we run the gamit we have we definitely have you know little old ladies walking in the door and then we have Tom Brady and or liony Messi or Sylvester Stallone walking in the door as well uh the JPS is interesting because s has had a real penchant for selling jpss lately um I'm curious and this is a question not prepped do you ever worry about hitting a level of attrition with a very specific expensive watch like that yes and no I think there's a reality um the watches are still out there they're still out there that's an expression that watch Community enthusiasts love to say they're still out there um when a watch a rare watch gets sold and it makes the papers if you will and there's a headline or hinki has been incredibly generous to to me personally and to sbe's telling our stories over the years um that definitely triggers people looking at their wrist and going oh my god I've got one of those I had no idea thought it was $10,000 um they come out of the woodwork that way so to some degree it's no surprise when a a highly celebrated well when a watch becomes highly celebrated and there's a press release or a story in hinki and it's the cover of an auction catalog it does um magnetize the others that are out there to to to come forward um so you know it can also have the reverse effect if we have a watch that doesn't do well people will undoubtedly say now's not a good time to sell my watch hasn't done well um you know the auction um sort of the science of auctioning it's fascinating in the way we set estimates and the way watches get sold we talk about not wanting to burn a watch this is in particularly relevant with respect to vintage watches we I'm very cautious about putting vintage watches in sales where I don't think they're going to sell at all because when a watch doesn't sell at auction it has a stigma that nobody wanted it um and it's it's burned and we're very cautious about that so there really is a science behind how we price watches curation um being very careful um and at the end of the the day we do represent the consigner we don't make anything so if we don't have consigners that give us watches we have nothing we're we have no business so um we're very careful in that regard uh I'll end with a softball and then open it up to a couple from the audience um what's one watch that when you see it it still sort of Sparks emotion for you I think it's easy to get desensitized in your position you see so many watches is there one watch that still does was it for you I wish I could say it was one watch um I'm an addict you know um my name is Jeff Hess and I have a problem um so there are a lot of Watchers that do that for me because I think I'm more known for Rolex than any other brand but it's I don't I think maybe that's a little less so now and in recent years um I probably would still say um a big Crown Submariner that is the watch that Shan connory James Bond wore in Dr No in Goldfinger um in other films Thunderball and that does something for me and when I see a beautiful um Rolex big Crown from the 1950s I hearkened back to 007 and what kid didn't want doesn't want to be James Bond and um you know that definitely you know gets me psyched um and I just went to a big U gathering in the Netherlands 3 weeks ago and saw a whole bunch of them and it was just super fun how about modern modern I mean boy lots of stuff I mean this guy was showing me something new that you know that he had just done and I I my jaw dropped like literally my jaw dropped so I think there are a handful of moments um where you see something new that you haven't seen before and modern lends itself so well to that um and creative genius like like Simone and and seeing what he's doing um is so exciting um and definitely floats my boat forgive the expression in a big way again my jaw dropped on on the uh on the roof a couple of hours ago so I think it's there are a lot of watches um in the modern world especially now with independent so much focus on Independent watchmaking that are incredibly exciting uh any questions for Jeff hey Jee good to see you good to see you um something that I find interesting about your career is your proximity to the art World um when you look at the whole watch World they believe auctions were doing what 40 million a year would be really really impressive um that's maybe a night in the art world one evening sale I'm sure you know your job is you're new in the position I'm sure your directive is to drive as many sales as possible you know what does it take to get your division to compete with the art side what are the things that are sort of needed to get there you know I think a lot about this and sometimes I'm thinking you know what does it take to get us to a foundational level where instead of you know making a purchase you're making a donation to a museum and that's what's going off of your wrist like what are the things that we need to do to get there what a great question look the reality is soube did about 8 billion in Revenue last year 8 billion watches were about 200 million so it's a very small part of it and with that comes the recognition that it's a business these aren't fraternity houses where you know it's a business that employs 2,000 employees and it has to be profitable so I definitely have budgets and each sale I have a Target and I'm told here's your budget you've got to make that number and there is pressure so I rais that for the following reason and it it is it really answers your question I think rather well there is a tension between wanting to do um want it would be let me put it this way it would be the ideal world would be to have a watch auction of 80 to 100 pieces nothing but the best and limit it to that um but we're not in that world that isn't reality I won't make my targets by having auctions of 80 watches um we can't exist as a business if we have only 80 watches so it does create attenion yes it you know in an Ideal World um we wouldn't be focused on um on budgets to the extent that we have to be now that doesn't mean you compromise Integrity we will never sell something that's not right unless we make a mistake in the absence of an honest mistake we'll never sell something that isn't right or isn't good um but beyond that we have budgets to make and we've got a sales have Hong Kong was 270 watches this on Sunday or S Friday when I was there um New York will be a little less it's a lot it's maybe a little more than I ideally would love um but it is a business it's not a mom and pop shop so you're right art is the the largest segment by far of Revenue of SES but you know one thing I will say watches are a part of the luxury division of SES which is a very material part multi-billion dollars a year and the luxury division is jewelry Collectibles um watches um cars we do what about a billion dollars a year in cars um it's a very big Division I mean we sell dinosaurs you know many of you may have seen we just sold the most impressive St osaurus fossil for $45 million um maybe two months ago um it's an incredibly exciting place to work but but it is a business so the watch division is a part of the luxury division which is not small but um somebody interestingly said to me that watches aren't expensive enough that the the real wealthy people buying a hundred million painting the $200,000 Paul Newman Daytona doesn't get their attention um and that eventually as prices get a Little Bit Stronger you may see the attention of of more wealth buying watches that may send watch prices um even higher we don't know it's still by and large community-driven people that just want to watch own Watchers because they love the stories they tell they love them they love the history they love the craftsmanship um and they love the community I think it's a great question do you want it to happen you know look there is a reality that it is fun I talk about always um wanting to own the watch and you never want the watch to own you and and what do I mean it is fun to look at a watch that you paid let's say it's $50,000 and it's worth 60 there's some even if you bought it not worrying about the money that feel feels good we're all human beings it's fun I own the watch wow look what I did it's less fun it's not fun to buy a watch for $10,000 and it's worth five and that you know doesn't feel as good so I don't want to turn a blind's eye and say I don't care what watches are worth of course I do and and I I think they'll always be cherished and always be coveted um but I don't I you know I still think that in if we learned anything from the co era if you will when watches blossomed in price very rapidly and people forgot normal economics which is that price is a function of supply and demand um if you forget that and you throw that out the window and try to defy economics it maybe isn't so much fun anymore um so I care about prices I certainly I think we all like it when watches are worth boring our Tre Treasures are worth more than what we paid um and that's an important element um but I don't think we're all wishing for this thing to keep flying Fair any else hi Jeff he um when you're dealing with some of these uh celebrity sellers is there any level of internal concern from their side of being able to get additional watches in the future or when they're downsizing I I feel like a lot of my what a great question collector friends that aren't quite to this level are like dude uh why is Stallone selling this stuff he's never going to get a padic ever again yep do they care or at the same point are they at a level that if they really wanted it they could find it somewhere else if they wanted it anyway such a great question um and I'm G to say I don't know and I definitely have that discussion with anybody that sells a very rare coveted watch you never want to be perceived as a flipper and I complet it I completely appreciate and understand a brand saying we don't want to allocate our rare pieces to people that are just doing it for the money and flipping it unequivocally that makes total sense along the same lines Sylvester Stallone selling a paddock Philipe and announcing to the world that this with his 70 million Instagram followers that this is the finest watch in the world that this is you know the greatest thing that ever came out of Switzerland um I treated it like a Monae these are exact quotes not so terrible for Paddock to get free advertising like that to be totally Frank so I don't know um what their take is I totally appreciate they don't want to sell watches to what we call Flippers at the same token It Isn't So ter terrible when celebrated brands do a video that goes viral talking about how wonderful your product is you couldn't they couldn't buy that for any price so yes lots of people said H sly's gonna be banned from Paddock I personally I don't know I didn't ask Paddock I don't think so um I don't I think it's good for them I really do look the converse is would Brands rather watches get sold for much less than what they're charging and have that story it's it's a great story I you know that was a watch I paid retail about 2 and A5 million and it paid you know it sold for five and a half billion that's great that was the most expensive modern watch ever sold at auction modern being you know let's say in the last 25 years or so that's a great story so when somebody buys a watch uses it enjoys it cherishes it speaks highly of it for three years and then decides to sell it I personally you know I'm not nearly as smart as these these Brands but I would have no problem with that it's me again with the mic um with your day-to-day job and your team what professional tool are you pressing on more being a marketer or a Salesman great question um neither I am trying to earn people's trust and that if you think about our business we are both representing buyers and we're representing sellers so of course I want a consigner to trust me that I won't take your watch if I don't think it's going to do well or here's what think it's going to do and I'm going to give you realistic expectations a lot of it is about setting expectations it's telling the truth so I don't know if that's salesmanship or marketing as opposed to earning trust so that's on the consignment side on the buy side let's look at this past weekend in Hong Kong I was on the phone with a a bidder who purchased with me um a half a million dollar vintage Paddock he hasn't seen this watch I went in to the back with a 10x Loop and looped everything in that and I wrote down every little blemish tried to take pictures with loops sent them to him via WhatsApp discussed it with him so that's not really marketing and that's not salesmanship that's earning his trust I'm trying to bring the watch to him he can't be in Hong Kong and he's trusting me I could very well have said this thing is mint it's perfect he won't know he'll get it he'll be disappointed and he'll never do anything with me again and that's not a sustainable business yeah there's a blemish at 12:00 there's a little Mark there this is you know I think the dial hasn't been cleaned um I think it's polished but the Hallmarks are on the back of the the case and they look great um you know the serial numberers intact um yesterday I was using a Geer counter on a on a vintage Rolex and you know my CU there there's radium in there and it's beeping all over the place I'm check we're using we're it's very important disclosure transparency those are overused cliched words no they're not because they're that critical very important I don't think I'm a Salesman or a marketer as much as I am trying to earn people's trusts whether they're buying or selling are you guys seeing more women in physically in the auction room which is like very traditionally a old man's club but are you seeing more women in the room and are you seeing more female bids and are they purchasing watches that are unexpected um in terms of the way that they're building their collection um and are there being efforts like intentional efforts being made by SES by Philip by Christies to encourage more women to to invest and watches with the biggest possible embrace the answer is yes all the way and it's been it's been one of the great things that have happened in watches in recent years and I actually you know in the beginning it was like Wow women are discovering watches I actually think that ship is already sailed that story is old news it is no kidding I mean it's a material part of the hobby now and it's so great and now we're really graduating into um women being a big part of the collecting um process telling real stories real narratives scholarship um I'm very proud of something we did in our last auction in New York we had um five women in watches celebrated in our auction catalog and it was about it wasn't about oh isn't this cute that women like watches it was wow these are real tastemakers in New York who are really embracing watches one of them was my dear friend mikica um so proud of that um and that felt for the that really felt organic it didn't feel Force it wasn't s bees trying to say look at us we're so diverse it wasn't that it was really true so it's been one of the great things in recent years seeing um so many new people and a lot of young people it's not just women but there's a whole new youth movement in watches which is fantastic and a big part of that has been female and I think it is so fantastic um so yeah and it lends itself very well to that auction room experience it isn't the Crusty old man sitting with the paddle it's a whole new world and it's just made it a lot better period you guys are testing out I wonder if there will be a case study done or a business case you made in five years from now that like sales are actually higher when the room is buzzing and people are excited to be there and there's like this this energy in the space that or alcohol too I guess probably helps some cases um but people are like there with their friends and it's a social event that encourages higher bids a little bit of like fun competition and will that translate to great question I believe it will a great question um you know it's not unlike you go to a if you go to a comedy movie and you're alone in the theater you're not laughing as hard um it's great to be in a theater that's packed um and good things will come from that and quite honestly we do live in a world of social media and when there are posts that show an empty auction room it suggests downtrodden it suggests sleepiness and it's not so interesting when there's a full house it suggests I got to get me some of that what's going on there I want to that looks like a ton of fun um so I'm a very big believer that good things will come and even to the food when we say hot dogs you know I and believe me it wasn't so easy for SES to embrace this soues is old school I didn't just walk in and say let's just do this and they said oh great idea I had to twist some arms I still have to fight it a little bit it's uncomfortable to change to this degree I made a big stink because the events people first wanted to serve you know very high-end it's caviar type food I don't want no chance I'll tell you the truth I asked for something I couldn't get and I'm still going to fight it I want some cotton candy machines in the uh in the auction room much fun would that be that maybe was a little too much so but we'll get there I believe the day will come where soube will serve cotton candy so I believe that it's um you know it's really more about having fun thus the pot hot dogs and the pretzels and a it was a New York experience um so yeah I'm a big believer in that and I hope it translates into into better things I just believe good things will come if we if we Embrace that on that note uh thanks everyone for coming and thanks to Jeff hus great thank you so much fun to be here thank you