The Most Complex Wristwatch Ever And An Interview With The CEO of Watches and Wonders

This week's episodes of Hodinki Radio are proudly sponsored by our partners at UBS. Stay tuned later in the episode for what we're planning this year in celebration of all things herology. And keep an eye out for the return of UBS House of Craft. Hello and welcome to day two of Watches and Wonders 2025. My name is James Stacy. I've got Ben, Tantan, and Mark. We are digging into everything we saw today. Yeah, we're trying to move quickly. We've got a ton of stuff. It's a very busy show this year. We also have a special segment in just a few minutes with the CEO of Watches and Wonders Geneva Foundation, Matthew Ume. And I think it's a pretty good chat. Andy and I sat down with him. We had some questions. You won't believe how many hotel rooms they book for this. It's truly a staggering number. So stay tuned for that. But guys, we uh we had a we've had a really busy day. We sure have. Uh we saw tutor yesterday after recording, so we can chat tutor if we want. We finally got some hands-on with Rolex. Pretty exciting. Yeah. Uh Orus, Grand Seiko, Tag, Hoyer, Hermes. It was a busy day. Yeah. You guys want to want to do a little get get through the the Rolex hurdle with uh there's so much stuff to see and and talk about. I think we probably should. Let's do Rolex for all the people that don't want Rolex. Just skip ahead five minutes. Yeah, let's get if if you see me with uh with somebody else, that's the next segment. Okay. You could jump to that if you need to. But look, I was surprised um by a lot of the stuff. Uh but especially 1908 on a bracelet, a heartbreaker. Yeah. Really good. And Tantan, the GMT with the cerak chrome dial. The difference that a matte dial makes to a modern, you know, ceramic clad Rolex is really remarkable. It's a cool watch. It's bizarre how good it is. It's so And it's really different from the black dial. I completely agree. And you know, I think you would just think that something like that is just such a cheap, you know, like, oh, they just threw a color dial in, you know, like it's the same thing as a Hulk, right? No. Um, this is the first ceramic dial Rolex has ever made in a watch. Um, so it is officially a cerak chrome dial. Um, it is optically different on the dial than it is outside of the crystal. So, compared to the one on the bezel, I believe it's the same shade, but it just looks so different. And, you know, both of us observed that when we saw in the booth, it kind of looked matte, but actually, I don't think that's the case. It just isn't glassy. It just isn't like bright and glossy. It doesn't capture light in the same way that you would expect. And I think that's so much of why it looks killer. Like it doesn't I think ceramic tends to, you know, there's a fine line between looking cheap and looking like really rich and saturated. And I think this style managed to balance that in a way that I've never seen before. Um people have made ceramic dials before. Not in this way. Yeah. Ben, what'd you figure? I don't even know where to begin. We saw so many things. Yeah, it was a lot of work. I'm excited when Tantan's excited when Mark is excited. James doesn't get excited, but these guys got I'm dead inside. Yeah. Yeah. Um, that was cool. Yep. For sure. I gotta go right to Landwell. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's the star of the show ultimately. So, I think it was really really nice on the wrist. I felt the 40 mm is too large for me. Then again, I'm literally wearing a 36 millm Rolex right now. That's my size in Rolex. Super slim, really nice. Um, the steel I felt was a little bit light. Again, I'm wearing a a precious watch, so I I like heavy things. Um, I thought the rose gold was a standout. Actually, the movement looks beautiful uh in in in in the flesh and the metal. Um dial not my favorite, but we kind of knew that it's better than than I thought it was going to be. Um Mark, what do you think of Land Dweller? Yeah, I think there's like a weird thing. I I think maybe look, their photography is always awesome, but I always wonder like maybe there was something about the way that it was photographed that made the dial look more threedimensional in pictures, weirdly. Whereas like sort of flattens out when you see it in person. Thought that was really cool. I liked more than I expected. I liked that new turquoise dial Daytona. I It feels kind of like, you know, just a fun Palm Beach watch or like a Miami watch or something like that. Reminds of the Daytona Beach, but like I I really like Daytona's on Oylex. And I don't know that I would buy it, but we saw somebody else walk in wearing it today and and it looked amazing on her. And and that that person was a woman and it just looked awesome. So, I think that's really cool. I think, you know, it's an interesting time for Rolex when they do something that dramatic that obviously the rest of the releases are not going to be as dramatic or whatever. I mean, we they did eight new Daytonas, eight eight new Daytona dials this year. Um, but a lot of them were things that they did before, variations on things that they did before. It's also just they understand that they've got one piece that's going to grab all the attention and not only for them, but for the rest of watches. and wonders. That's the thing. Even if you broke an accuracy record or made the most complicated watch in the world or anything else that we've seen, the fact that Rolex did something that massive just shows how hard it is to compete with them on a on a market and in terms of attention that they get. So, it's funny you mentioned that James and I were in Geneva about a month and a half ago and we were sitting with the CEO and the CMO of a international brand and they were like, you know what? What's your advice for watches of wonders? We were like, "Don't launch anything on the first day cuz it's Rolex day. Like it should be an international holiday. It's Rolex day." And we said like, "Look, like we can show you the numbers. Like we do publish everything basically the same time. Uh Rolex actually usually comes a little bit later than everybody else. And yet the first day of watches and wonders is just dominated by Rolex. Like it just is. And that's not any judgment on any other brand or on the world at large. It just it just is that way. Brands don't want to hear it unfortunately. And like some some are some are good at it, some I understand they're really proud of what they're doing and it's just not not the most helpful thing for them. If we're trying to help tell their stories about things that are interesting and want to celebrate that stuff, like it's it's no slight against them if they run on day two. We're helping them get more eyeballs because they're not competing with something that is just naturally going to get more clicks. But this year, I think was even model. Yeah. Uh, we'll wrap up Rolex, but quickly, if you're going to buy one Rolex from this year, what are you buying? You know, money aside, like somebody's just going to hand it to you. The one I felt the most about was the 1908 on the bracelet. Yellow gold bracelet. This is Teemo bracelet. Yep. It's the weight and the finness of the bracelet, for lack of a better term. Yeah, the bracelet is incredible. It's incredible. And and as somebody pointed out, the idea that it's not actually fixed to the case, the end links are basically curved end links. That's a that's a vintage watch. watch. I mean, somebody that that designed that watch was, you know, really looking to appeal to people that like a 1940s gayfair flat or straight link bracelet. And that is a killer bracelet. I'm with you on that. I mean, the GMT, that's the the most positive I felt about the modern six-digit GMTs, which I find they're quite shiny, and I'm a sucker for a 16710. I love the solid gold from a previous year. Um, but I think that that with the the green dial really does something, and I think it's just the the a little bit less shiny, which which kind of speaks to me. Yeah. The other little bit moreish. The other one for me, and this this is one of those things that I'll I'll happily admit here, is even though the John Mayor Daytona was coined on a video that I was hosting on a platform that I founded, I don't own a John Mayer Daytona. You stole the watch that I was going to Yeah. Sorry, Mark. And uh it feels like that happens to a lot of us. Uh and I was in London recently and I almost bought one certified pre-owned and then I saw this watch and I was like, "Oh my god, they brought it back for me to buy basically." And so I guess I would take that because I feel like I need a John Mayer watch in my life, you know? I think for me, as much as the green GMT seems like the perfect thing, everyone knows in the company, I love green dials. Literally, anytime there's a green dial, I'm choosing that one. You didn't know that? No, I'm I'm not wearing an Oberene suit today. Um, no. I think for me, the silent killer, though, is the rose gold, sorry, ever rose GMT with the tiger iron dial. Oh, yeah. Sick. I mean, it's one stone dial with three minerals inside. It's red jasper, hematite, as well as tiger's eye. And just like you I mean, we all saw it. It's just this really weird take on a GMT Master that's sort of opulent without being gem set. Um, and I think it's just kind of perfect. So, for me, it's like, you know, if there's one chance to do it, I would that would be the one I pick. I was going to pick the John Mayer, especially as a Green Bay Packers fan that doesn't have a Packers related watch. And it's like with You need a Packers related. You need a P. That's That's the real justification there to spend that much money. Um, I'm gonna pick something just based on pictures alone that we didn't get to see. Sapphire Daytona. Sure. After the after the ruby Daytona, which I've gotten to see in person, and I guess like the rumor is maybe like 20 of those or something. They did the same thing with with blue y gem set. It's wild. Like a modern sodaite sort of thing. Yeah. But like black dial with with the baguette bezel. And look, if I can't have the John Mayer, I guess I'll go that way. There you go. I mean, your watch should be fair. I think it's like several times more expensive. So, you win. Nobody said we had to pay for them. Agree. Exactly. Said you didn't have to pay. Money, no object. That's Rolex. Obviously, there's a ton of coverage on the site. If there's something more you want, give us a day or two. My guess is we'll get it up there as well. Uh, so I think the other one that we saw, which is after the recording yesterday, is Tutor. And you know, I I think at this point, if you've been on the site or really any site uh covering watches, you you'd know about the releases. Um you know, I'm a Pelos nerd, as is Tantan. And to see the Ultra, it's a direction I just didn't expect cuz we've had years of them going down in case size, and then all of a sudden we have multiple coming in at 43, the newif uh 68 uh BB, and then this uh the um the Pelos Ultra. And Yep. Tantaman, what do you think of the Ultra once you got to see it? Oh, I mean, so James and I have disagreed on, as much as we are both Pelos nerds, I think one of the biggest things we disagree on is sort of which one appeals to us most, right? For me, it's the original design of the Pelos 42, that sort of weird tutor, like unashamedly modern. Exactly. The unashamedly modern tutor design language. For you, I know it's the Pelgos 39, which perfect wearing um case shape. And so for me, I think I love the Pelgos Ultra because it kind of feels like the best of both worlds where you have a lot of what made the original design great. Um, and one of the big things that I didn't like on the 39 is that sort of radially brushed ceramic bezel. I love that sort of great true titanium with matte black ceramic and like these blocky arrow numerals and snowflake hands. That's like perfect. Yeah. Um, and with the Ultra, bigger hands, bigger numerals, more loom, two-color loom, which is, you know, notable for for Rolex. And then I think it's the first time I've ever come across this. By all means, go fact check me on this one. Yeah, I don't think I've ever seen loom on a bracelet clasp before. 100%. I I've never seen that. I don't think so. So, if you love the Pelos, it's basically the same thing. They've integrated the two-stage sort of pseudo T fit thing where you used to have a little gauge to kind of get the the extension on the springs. Now, they've painted the little marker in loom. And I was like I hit it with my camera flash and it's like it glows well enough to see it. I don't know. Do I need that? No. Need any? It's freaking cool though. I mean also why not, you know? Like I think there's the idea that the Pelos when it first came out was crazy because it was basically a $4,000 500 meter diver that was essentially technically speaking a sea dweller. You know, it was a competitor for a lot a lot less. And titanium. And in titanium. Exactly. Way before Rolex ever did it. Wait. I mean and and it was and it was when the brand was in the mode of really leaning into Black Bay which is almost the opposite of a Pelos. Exactly. So you ended up with these sort of two camps and then we got blue and LHD and FXDS and 39s and now we've got a lingis and carbons and and you know the line's quite a bit bigger than you. Can I just say that not too many people would say that a Pelos is almost the opposite of a black bay. You don't think it is? Like in terms of the spectrum of a dive watch. You're talking within the confines of dive watch. Like they they serve the exact same purpose. Well, they did the same thing, but like to 99.9% of humanity. Well, to me, they're like two different ends of the same spectrum. Maybe that's a better way. But you're a tutor hit. Like you you love tutors. I do. Right. So, especially the Bellagos. I would agree with you. Yeah. Um but the idea just like throwing everything and the kitchen sink into one watch. This was awesome. And it wears thinner. It wears if you like the If you can wear the 42, you'll be happy. It's a little thinner. The one doesn't do much. It wears better on my wrist than the LHD. And like that's all you need, you know? I think we've been seeing this the last couple years and I maybe even like most like a moment switched with the monochrome last year, the Blackway monochrome, but they this is the year that strikes me the most that tutors like oh we have the enthusiast audience. We've had them for a while like let's fill out the commercial product for a wider variety. I mean I think that was it's pretty much the justification for the 68 which I don't necessarily personally get. I would love to see the metrics of like how many people are going to buy that that and you know wish there was a way to find out how many people are going to buy that that wouldn't have bought the monochrome. Yeah. But they see a market for that and the larger watches whether it's the pelos or the 68. Um, I think the the burgundy black bay 58 is really interesting and again I think very niche but um I remember going to tutor my first time to the headquarters and uh somebody pulled out for us the uh the prototype for that watch which they have on display which is really cool. It was a 1990s idea to make a sub with a you know a sunburst red dial and red bezel and they made one and that's it. And then when they brought back the Black Bay line, they didn't want to go all the way. I guess I talked to the designer and he said it wasn't the right time to go all the way for that, but we could do a bezel. And then, okay, we were starting to feel confident. We're we did that bezel a couple times. We did a blue blue dial and a blue, you know, bezel. And and eventually they're like, "All right, full circle. Bring it all back around. Now is the time for this." And again, it's like, "Well, we have pretty much everything else. Now we can kind of experiment a little bit." I'll be curious to see how successful some of those experiments are, but yeah, you know, they still have the core enthusiast products. Yeah, I I think that's just it. I think and and I'll kind of echo probably something that I said last year on this podcast is I love Tutor and if if if anybody ever says I wear a modern watch more than I wear my Blackpack 58, they're lying. Like that is truly my favorite most worn watch every day of my life. Truly, that case is perfect. Having said that, what I missed about last year and this year is like the weird and wonderful. And I think if you look at what what I've always loved about Tutor after the Black Bay 58, which again is my my favorite modern Tutor is these these weird offshoots, right? Like we were at Tutor not not so long ago here in Geneva and we saw a solid gold black bay. We saw ceramic black bay. We saw a sterling silver black bay. We saw a what else? Uh there's the P01. P01. It was Yeah, as we said, Pelos and titanium. They they have done these like pretty wonky in a good way. Yeah. weird oddball oddball and it's like to come from the the family Rolex and do these weird things is really fun and charming for a guy like me who sees so many goddamn watches, you know? And so this year I was like, "Okay, this is just allventional." It's all Yeah. And I'm just like, "All right, like I get it." And I think, you know, for guys like you, like it fills out the collection really, really well, but there's nothing that gets me that excited from this year. I like the White Dial Pro. That'd be the one for me just cuz that feels, you know, slightly different. a 54 probably would be the one from last year or the year before, but I love it when they do like a sterling silver case. I mean, that's so weird. I kind of wonder if like the last couple years we've seen Rolex pick up the mantle of like doing some crazy stuff like really surprising the celebration, the puzzle dial, all these kinds of things. Like I wonder if that kind of changes any of the calculus for for Tutor because like I guess it does. Yeah. Now they're not the only crazy one in the Pam. Well, yeah. I mean I mean when when Tutor is doing all that crazy stuff that I just mentioned like Rolex was a hyperconervative brand in every way. Now they're leaking watches on ambassadors y right they're doing all the things that you just mentioned it they're still very conservative but you know it really it really does feel like oh that mantle has been taken playbook has changed in the last few years playbook has really changed for sure. Special thanks again to our partners at UBS for their support of Hodinki radio. Last October, Hodinki and UBS brought together some of the most influential personalities and brands in the industry to celebrate all things watches. This year, we're partnering again with expanded events across the US in addition to our fall House of Craft in New York. Stay tuned to Hodinki for updates on these events and other projects with our friends at UBS. Now, back to the show. Hello and welcome to a special presentation for Hudinki Radio at Watches and Wonders 2025. My name is James Stacy. I'm joined today by my colleague Andy Hoffman and a very special guest, the CEO of Watches and Wonders Geneva Foundation, Matthew Ume. How are you? Hello. I'm very good, thank you. We opened the salon. Watch Geneva 2025 is ready. It opened yesterday and very happy to have you here. Welcome to Watch Geneva. Thank you so much for having us. Why don't you give us a little bit of a background on the show, how it's kind of um transitioned from SIH. There'll definitely be people in the audience who don't remember that era and then there's lots that were there, right, like us and that sort of thing. So, how has the show been and how's it kind of evolved in the last couple of years? And then I have some more specific questions for Yeah. No, sure. The the SI exchange the first edition was in 1991 with five brands. Just five. Five. Yeah. We are 60 today. So you can see the the evolution. A big change was 2021 with the arrival of Rolex, TUDor, Chopar, Chanel brands, we decided to join the Watch Geneva event. After two online edition 2020 and 2021, it was 2022 as a first uh physical gathering uh with all those brands. Um we were 48 brands in 2023. 54 last year and 60 this year with uh seven new brands with the arrival of uh Bulgari and six independent brands and a lot of content, a lot of animation, personalized and handmade uh experiences for the for the guest. Uh the four first days will be uh professional and clients press retailers and three days uh open to the public. Right. And how how were the tickets uh for that? I know. I I checked on the site a few not that long ago because a friend wrote me and asked if they should go and I said you should you should definitely go and they said oh there's no tickets for the day that they wanted. So I think it's quite popular. Yeah, very popular. Last year we had 19,000 uh entrances 1900 guys. Yeah, we were sold out before the opening. Uh same trend this year. So yeah, for people who want to to join uh it's almost sold out Saturday. Uh a few tickets left for Sunday and Monday. So yeah go on the platform make your program you can see the different session organized by the brands we have never never been so much content uh different experiences inside the booth encounter with the with the watch makers workshops conferences guided tours to explore the the secret of the brands and the me and also a very nice program this week in the city of Geneva with the watchmaking village and the boutiques animation for a very nice uh program all week long. Absolutely. And I I think what anyone listening would understand at this point is there's a lot going on. Yeah. This is a it's a maximalist take to a what's essentially a very special interesting expression of a trade show. And I I'm curious just some baseline questions. How many people come through this building while the show's open? So last year we had 49,000 visitors during the week. We expect this year to be again a record addition. uh because we had a lot of registration yesterday already plus 10 person attendance first day. So yeah definitely uh watch 2025 will be amazing. How do you keep the people who are here happy? Keep them wellfed, hydrated. Um, tell us about how many meals, how many drinks you're serving, and how you staff members, how many staff members? It's a big organization. The the Watcha Foundation works throughout the year handinhand with the exhibiting brands to um build the best meeting platform specific for this industry. There's a lot of coordination. Uh, of course the operation it's two months set up. We started here in in Palex Expo beginning of February to be ready and open on on April 1st. Just to give you some numbers, it's almost 4,000 steps to walk around the salon. Uh, so you need to have good shows when you come to to watch. We had 2,000 people working during the setup. Now it's more or less 6,000 staff, hospitality, security, FNB because very important to keep the level of service when you come to watch it's an experience, an immersive experience in the world of watchmaking. So everything needs to be perfect like the right on your wrist. Absolutely. And what do you say I mean that you've grown the number of brands each year. Um, what do you say to brands when you're telling them why they should join? And who what kind of brands do you want to join? Are there any parts of the industry that you don't want? You know, the watch is open to all to all brands interesting in joining. Of course, it's the brands decision uh to come at watch Geneva. It's a teamwork project. Uh when you come to watch Zondas, you you talk about watchmaking. Our mission is to promote watchmaking all around the world. We have the ambition to create new passions, new vocation in the industry and that's why also we the the youth is the guest of honor this year and a lot of animation dedicated to them in the salon and in the city with the watchmaking professions that are on the spotlight all week long. Fantastic. Now I'm curious are the audience will be upset if I don't ask. I see you've got a cardia on the wrist. How do you decide what brand you wear, what day? I'm sure you wake up in the morning and you've got 60 days. Yeah, of course the salon is not last not 60 days unfortunately. Uh but I have the chance to be in the middle of all those uh beautiful brands and uh lucky that I have several nice watches that uh I like to wear according to the suit. It depends on on my style of the day. Very nice. And can you talk about the the structure in terms of the brands that are, you know, part of the founding members and you've had new brands uh join and how that's evolving. So the watcha foundation was created in 2022 by the initiative of Rolex Rishmo and Patek Phillip. newcomers uh last year in the foundation bar with Chanel, Hermes and LVMH which is a guarantee of continuity and shows a commitment to the future of this uh event. We have 60 brands participating um this show. So we also have exhibiting committees where we take the decision the operational decision of the show. Um and yeah happy to have those very nice players in the industry. uh willing to to work together uh to make watchmaking shine and your goal is to have more. It's definitely open. So yes, we we talk with the entire industry and brands who would like to join. There are still some available space, not a lot, but we still have some space here in Palexo for them. Very good. And I'm curious beyond just the brands. I think if you walk around the show, you mentioned it's at least 4,000 steps, so you have some time. Uh I saw a YouTube hub, there's the lab, there's there's a lot more than just sort of spaces devoted to the brands. Any of that you find specifically exciting as far as this year's editions? Uh the longitud exhibition must be seen this year. An exhibition presented by the Geneva photographer Fred M. Um will take visitors. It's a journey along the green witch meridian. Very nice to see. It's a photo exhibition and it's part of the vanders of watches and wonders because definitely we want the visitors to experience watch making differently on the booth of course but also in the lab in the exhibition and in the city of Geneva. And what role does the government uh whether it be local or uh canel or or federal here play in uh in the show and in the promotion of watchmaking in general in Switzerland. Uh we are lucky to to have very good relationship with the city uh the state of Geneva all the local partners the hotels which represent more than 40,000 overnight stays during the entire period. So I'm sorry. Say that number one more time. 40,000 hotel rooms. Uh night yeah hotel rooms during the period centralized by our team. Yeah. Uh to optimize the stay to Yeah. It's a lot of coordination, a lot of teamwork of course between the brands but also with the city and the and the local partners. Yeah, we today watch on Geneva is the largest event in Geneva and yeah during that week the entire world will have eyes on Geneva as the watchmaking destination and capital of time. Amazing. Well, look, you're a very busy guy. The show's incredible. Uh, congratulations on adding new brands and 40,000 hotel rooms. That number is going to be bouncing around in my brain for a while. That's very impressive. The logistics of this I find very fascinating. We've talked about it in past years as well. But thank you so much for coming on the show and uh anyone who's watching if you want to learn more, hit the show notes. We'll have all the links and all that kind of stuff and you can dig in deeper. But uh thank you so much and congratulations for 2025. Thank you very much. We said we' we'd buzz through Rolex and Tutor and there's some on yesterday's episode if you didn't happen to get to that. Um what else did we see today that you guys kind of got excited about? I think we have to talk Formula 1, right? Yeah, we just came from TAG. Yeah, we just came from TAG. We saw all nine of the new sort of Formula 1 colors in this new revival of the 1986 design. Yeah. Um I think the most notable thing obviously is Aqua Racer got the solar movement a few years ago. Really interesting kind of concept. Um and now we have uh Formula 1 with Solar, right? So it's it's obviously, you know, and I think this ties into a trend that Ben, you said yesterday on the podcast, which is that I think a lot of brands this year are doing what you would you said is solid commercial stuff, right? And that's I think ties into what you said about Tutor as well. Um, Formula 1 ones are designed to sell, right? They're cashing in on a pocket of nostalgia that a lot of people have. They serve as, you know, and we can talk about pricing in a little bit because I think that's where most a big part of the conversation. Yeah. I think most people have a little bit of hesitancy over the sort of $2,000 around uh price point, but price aside, I think this is essentially the most I think significant Formula 1 merchandise that you can get, right? This is instead of buying a cap, you know, or a sweatshirt at a former polo. Exactly. Instead of that at a Grand Prix, you might be buying these, right? And for people that don't know, they're tying each individual release to different Grand Prix. So, you know, you know, Mexico will have one, Austin will probably have one, Miami, um Singapore, all that. And so, they're they're pacing this out in a strategy. And and as we were talking to TAG, I know they they also kind of alluded that um it is also conveniently, you know, tied to production. helps um them space out kind of producing so many models like a ton of the limited editions are 3,000 pieces so it's not it's not a small production um but you know this is Formula 1 it's the right time to do it it's their moon swatch right it's as tag hoyer is I don't think it is you don't think it is no okay let's talk about that because I think most people dismiss it and this is where the pricing conversation because I think most people look at it and they're like well this is Tag Moon's watch so why am I paying $2,000 for something that's for the record I disagree with because there's a lot more nuance in that conversation, right? I I didn't want to get into the conversation till we had a chance to see the watches. And if you pick those up, if you've had any experience with TAG, what we'll call the entry point for TAG, call it a $3,000 Aquarer, give or take, $2,500 Aquarer, it's the same. Yep. Completely. So, the pricing isn't that wild. It's quartz. You're either going to love quartz, you don't. If you guys know my taste, I adore quartz. But my opinion is always if you're going to go with a quartz watch, get a good quartz. Get one that's very accurate or solar or add something more than just it's inexpensive and runs on a battery. This one, the battery lasts quite a long time. Uh, for me, the product has to feel like the old Formula 1, but it has to work today. And I think they nailed those two things. And I was afraid, too, cuz when they saw I I'm usually when it comes to a modern revival, I'm like, "Okay, that's fine. Increase the case size a little bit. I get it. It's a little bit bigger, but the size is still small. It still wears small." Um, and because it's shrouded, great. Bracelet's good. Um, yeah. Dials are not a moon swatch quality dial. Correct. This is a applied numeral. Yes. Uh, lots of color. Uh, they're nicely made. I I don't know. I We experience a lot of watches. Uh, I I feel I'm probably borderline a specialist with watches under $5,000. There's nothing about this watch that feels out of place. Correct. Except that we have the context of Omega, a brand that makes amazing $10,000 watches partnering with a a translation layer watch and and making this thing. And and I think if TAG had partnered with a brand that operated at the $300 price point, I might have a different expectation, but they made a tag and that's what it is. I dig it. I like I'm very I'm seriously considering getting I love that steel cream red. I mean, we we've already talked about it right the minute we tried. I would wear that all the time. The green one for me is is the winner on the bracelet. Um something about the sandlasted metal all over is just awesome. But I think it's also interesting because I just spent a few days at Swatch as well, right? looking at the system 51 factory and and you know seeing how all that's made and you know and Swatch gets should get all the credit for making a 100% Swissade watch you know automatic at that price point. Absolutely. And but they're still made very differently. You know they they're proud of sort of the I I don't want to say shortcuts because that puts it in a negative light but a lot of the compromises you have to work with to get it to that price point. You have to be ingenious in that way and and I don't think they would suit a tank. Exactly. They suit Swatch. It's made very differently if you look at a Formula 1. I think that's why hopefully people can get their hands on them. Hopefully they'll understand. I mean the Kith ones were priced exactly pretty much the same, right? A little bit less. Yeah. 1750 something like that. We're talking for those who are Yeah, exactly. Not not the solar graph and we're like 1950 about 2000. Mark, how did it hit you? Uh I think I think they were they were fine. I mean, I still probably would go in search of a vintage one just because there are certain little things about that that I Well, there's a similarity there that like the appeal is very simple. It is, you know, it's little little touches. Um like what? Um I don't know. Like looking at the the core collection with that cream dial, like I shot two of them next to each other, the vintage and the new. The other one is like a little more off. It's it's the it's the luminous like dial looking situation. I there I don't know. It's pretty charming, but I can't fault anybody that goes that direction. No, not at all. Can I do a severe shift in topic real quick because I think it's kind of funny that we went straight to Formula 1, which is yes, it's a consumer product. Yeah, it's a big moment and people are people are uh you got another big moment in mind. Yeah, I have I know where this is going. I have one or two big moments in mind that I think are like worth at least mention. One uh Grand Seiko most accurate mechanical watch in the world plus minus uh 20 seconds for their movement. Really cool. Big moment. I think we're going to see that play out over time. Um maybe maybe we'll finally get some more like approachable size divers and stuff like that with a smaller movement overall. But uh most complicated wristwatch in the world. Yeah. Like good point, Mark. You did it again. And you saw it. I saw it for two two in a row. I mean likeing Berkeley Grand Comp uh last year. Most complicated watch period in the world which like people mention the size. I mean, it weighed, I think, nearly 2 lbs and it was massive and it's just like, you know, yeah, it's a it's a watch. People ask, "How is that not a clock?" Okay, I tried finding a definition for a clock versus watch. Like, there's no dividing line technically. So, like, you know, at some point, yeah, what are we all talking about? But anyway, wristwatch that is 45 mm by 14.99 mm with 41 complications. Yeah. which is like a half millimeter bigger than the eternal calendar and thickness or something like that. And was it it's it's they let us wear it. We couldn't touch the Berkeley last year. We got to wear it. Got to watch it. Got to see it move the hand. I just I looked at it. They set it down and the time was set to something that like blocked and I was like, "Can I set the hands?" Yeah, whatever. So, it works. Yeah. Just to be clear, if if you ever have the experience of going to one of these meetings, especially when you're talking about a watch that has two two digits worth of complications, doesn't have to be 40, they don't typically want you to touch much of it or or put a fingerprint on it or or definitely you pull the crown and start changing settings or I mean like this is something I usually a man comes in a suit with gloves and chimes for you. Yeah, it's uh I mean that was absolutely wild. I wish I had more time to like do more. Great story on the site if you want to dig in. It was I mean it was a really special experience and I think like look until somebody else I mean they beat the record by five complications which is not insignificant and like till somebody else does that but not only did they do it once and it one it wasn't a commission they just said to one of their watch makers spend the next eight years making the most complicated thing that you can that's also wearable. That was like the rem wearable is important. Yeah. I mean, cuz remarkable. Yeah. And it and it just looks like any other watch. Somebody said, "Oh, it's little slabsided." It's like, okay, it's the most complicated watch in the world. It's 15 mm thick. Like, what are we talking about here? Like, I'm, you know, but, you know, the to do that and give somebody the the time. I mean, if you figure you have a 40-year career, that's, you know, a fifth of your career is spent on one thing. It's that's that's super cool. And then just to be able to handle that, see that and then be told, oh yeah, if people come to us, I mean, we're going to sell this one, but if people come to us and they want another one, they want a different dial or something, we'll do this. This is Labanier. This is what we do. So if another person wants one or two or three more people come, they'll do them. Yeah. How much how much do these cost? Asking for So So they didn't say anything on pricing. Um I'm kind of curious your guesses. Uh, I I've heard I've heard rumors and these really are rumors that it'd be about 4 million. I was thinking three. Yeah. Three to four. And I mean I mean if we split it four ways I think. Yeah. Yeah. There you go. I think we can do that. Yeah. I I I think I think first of all it's a business write up I think. Yeah. Yeah. First things first, I think Mark won this podcast because he's totally right. Like the fact that like we're talking about Formula 1 and Land Dwellers and and and Tutor. We're not talking about a the Grand Se and that's all good stuff. I'm not saying the Grand Seiko thing is insane. The Grand Seiko thing being the most accurate mechanical watch is 20 plus or minus 20 seconds a year. A year, right? A year. And their most their next most accurate watch before that plus minus 15 seconds per month, right? Yeah. I don't know that that was the record overall, but that was their most act and then 20 a year. Yeah. No, that that's a big deal. And and and very very right with the Bashron thing. I think you know in a different decade it's just for the 80s or even the '9s. I think it's like that no matter what Rolex said that would be the talking point of the enthusiast world. It just it would be like a New York Times story kind of. I mean, I'm sure it still is, but I think it already has, but yeah, in a in a different way. I mean, like you think about stuff like this is a deep cut, but the James Schultz wristwatch, which was the first ever perpetual calendar minute repeating chronograph, was made, I believe, in the 30s, and it was still written about in Time magazine, I think, in the 1950s. So, like, that's the level that we're talking about here. Now we're going into 41 complications and it's just like yeah, Landwell dweller and it's and Land Dweller is a big thing for the industry and for what it means for a Rolex. But um but it's just kind of give them give give basher on their dude for sure. You can't say that we don't have some variety. $2,000 tag solar all the way up to uh superly thin 41 complication wrist watches. Yeah. Have we talked about Cardier yet? Uh no we haven't. Probably should. Right. Tonkish. I think we got a little little time left. Yeah, Tangish is Yeah, another show stealer I think. I mean, for the vintage lovers and and that's I will say still not legible if your eyes are not absolutely perfect, but it was it's still pretty good and it's fun and like okay, so you have to look a little bit longer, but it's it's my I would argue the coolest tank that's ever been made. and like the fact that they did it pretty much damn near original this time instead of the crown at I was going to say 3:00 now the crown's back at 12 and it's relatively easy to actually set which is another important thing. What's the what's the movement in that? So I can't remember the caliber number but it's they developed a caliber that for the jump hour apparently is is what my understanding of the messaging was when I wrote about it. Um and it's only the whole watch is only 6 millimeters thick. So, a jump hour, I mean, yes, other people have done jump hours recently. There's a big difference between that that fits in that tank size and it's six millimeters thick and, you know, other jump hours to me. Yeah. No, I I loved it. I saw my favorite was the yellow gold. I'm in the yellow gold mindset as you know, Mark. Uh, really it does a little We can share. Yeah. Perfect. Um, yeah. Really really beautiful thing for sure. So, what do you guys like think about the oblique? Is it too weird? It's not It's not too weird. Uh, I just prefer the traditional Mhm. I think that'd be my That'd be my take as well. The yellow gold just Wow. Three for three. What about you? Just a cool thing. There's like the easiest way to say this is this is going to get me made fun of. I know. Especially by Ben, but when I when I before we knew what the pricing was. I texted my guy in New York and I You got a guy? I got a guy that I I bother. I don't know that I'm I'm helpful to him in any way, but uh I I texted him somebody at Cardier in New York and I said, you know, if there's a list forming maybe, you know, someday on the platinum and then I heard that the price is rumored around, I think, 50 euro, 50,000 euro. And I was like, if there's a list, can you take me off it for the platinum? Uh and he's like, "Yeah, no problem. Gotcha." But uh I I really like the original. And the oblique is interesting, but as Rich pointed out to me, it's better if you're wearing watches on the right hand cuz the way that the font is twisted, you're upside down on the left hand with that turn. You have to like distort your body to be able to see it. Yeah. Well, there you go. That's day two. Body distortion, mass complications, land dwellers, and everything else. It's wonders. Yeah. Loom on a bracelet. That's big. We've got a lot of variety. There's a ton of stuff on the site. Even as you're watching this, there will be more stuff minutes later. So, please enjoy. Thank you so much for watching and uh we'll see you tomorrow for day three from Watches and Wonders.