I got a private lesson on Claude Cowork & Claude Code

Claude Cowwork is here and if you understand how to use it, you're going to be able to outperform 99% of people on this planet. It is an easy way for you to use Claude Code. You might have heard of Claude Code. It's gone viral. But the problem is it feels technical. You have to go into the terminal and it's not fun for a lot of beginners. So Claude has come up with co-work and it's a brand new product that harnesses the power of Claude code in a UI that is simple that anyone could use that your dad can use, your mom could use. Hey, even you can use. So in this episode I brought on Boris, the maker of this product. I'm so excited that he shows you the best practices for how to use Claude Co-work and at the end how he sets up his Claude code to get the most out of it. You're going to love this episode. >> We are lucky we've got Boris. He's the creator of Claude code and I would say the co-creator of Claude co-work today and today what I want to get accomplished is everyone's talking about co-work and I want to best understand what are the use cases, how can we get started, what are some nonobvious ways I can use it. So Boris, thank you so much for coming on the show and I have one question for you. By the end of this episode, what are people going to get out of it? Oo, I think people are going to start to get some more ideas for how to use co-work and hopefully they're going to tweet about it and maybe they'll even reach out to me so I can learn how they want to use co-work. It's funny, I feel like um quad code from the beginning it was sort of built to be it wasn't actually built to be a product at all, but when we first started thinking about it as a product, we thought that the thing people would use it for is coding. But we learned very quickly that people didn't just use it for coding, they used it for like all sorts of stuff. So I I kind of feel the journey of quad code has been very surprising. And I have been learning so much just watching how people use the product and how they abuse it and kind of like what what they actually want to use it for and even if it's not designed for that. So I kind of feel the same way about Coorwork. You know, I have some ideas about what people are going to use it for. I kind of view these as hypothesis and so, you know, happy to talk about it. happy to maybe I'll do a quick demo to to show you kind of some of the some of the things that we use it for. But I think that it's going to be pretty surprising. Uh and I hope that I will be surprised um when we see how people actually use it in the wild. >> Yeah, I think uh that's always the case with with platforms especially if you think about it like when when the makers of the app store created the app store, you know, the the initial apps was like you know a beer drinking app and like a bunch of random apps like that. Did they know that, you know, Uber was going to come out of that, Door Dash was going to come out of that, Tik Tok was going to come out of that? Probably not. So, I think that what's really cool about the phase that we are in right now with Claude Code and also Claude Co-work is we're all figuring it out at the same time. And none of us, including the creator, have all the answers. But I agree with you like what's it's it's a good time to be sharing some you know sharing what's working not working and you know if you're open to it let's let's screen share and get our hands dirty. >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. >> So what are we looking at right now Boris? >> Yeah. So this is the this is the cloud desktop app. Um so you just download it. Um it co-work is only available for Mac OS. Um you know Windows coming soon. Uh there's a few different tabs in the desktop app. So there's the chat, that's the default, there's co-work, that's the new one, and there's code, and that's just quad code. Um, co-work under the hood, it's actually just quad code. And so, you know, the agent that makes quad code awesome, we call it the quad agent. It's also available as the quad agent SDK. So you can use it programmatically. You can, you know, all sorts of companies build all sorts of cool things on top of it. We actually use that same exact SDK directly in co-work. Um, so it's like, you know, it's pretty cool. just kind of one layer across everything. We have the best agent, have the best agentic model, might as well use it. And so what I'll do is just to kind of show how how to use this thing. And you know, like when I think about agentic AI, this word agentic has sort of lost all meaning cuz it it's just like used so much. So, I feel like probably a lot of listeners have heard the word agent, but they don't actually know what it means or, you know, they think it's like some like cool AI or or something, but it it actually has like a very specific meaning in the AI world, which I think has kind of been lost because a lot of the products that people have released in cold agentic in the past are not actually agentic. And so like when you think about the AI products that everyone's used you know like obviously quad code uh chat based apps where you know you just chat with the app kind of back and forth send some messages. The biggest difference with agents is uh it can take action and you know it's not just text and it's not just like web searching but it can actually use tools on your computer. it can it can interact with the world. And so for anthropic from the very beginning since before our models were good like before like you know like cloud 3 or whatever this is a thing that we wanted to get really good at because we felt that it's very important. Um and so from the start we wanted our models to be really great at coding and then really great at tool use and then really great at computer use. So it's it's kind of cool like you know the last year seeing how people have been hacking quad code it's pretty obvious this is kind of the place that we should go. Um and so for people that have used quad code you know none of this will be you know like too surprising. These are actually things that you can do. So really what we're trying to do is make this something that everyone can use in a way that's safe. And so what I'm going to do is um you know here on my desktop I have a I have this like receipts folder. I have a few receipts in it. Um, so I'm just going to give uh co-work access to my desktop. And you you have to pick like which specific folders it can see. By default, it can't see anything. So you have to kind of opt in to see to let it uh access specific folders. And so I'm going to say um, you know, I can say, uh, I have a receipts folder. Can you rename the files to match the dates on the receipts? >> So, so I think one interesting thing is when you're using co-work, it's really like it's operating with your files. Like that's a that's a big sort of mindset shift that people should have. It's almost like your operating system. Is that right? >> Yeah, exactly. It's like it it has your files, so the ones that you give it access to. Um, but actually the even cooler thing is it can use all sorts of tools. Um, and so like files actually is like, you know, that's like that's useful, but it's not it's not like that cool. What's actually much more interesting is it can generate files for you. So, you know, it can make like presentations and things like this. Um, it can interact with any tool over MCP and it has built-in support for Chromebased browsers. Um, so it can actually control your browser to do to do stuff. And so I'll I'll kind of show that a little bit. So this is kind of the first step. Um, when you're first getting started with co-work, the thing I recommend is, you know, do exactly what I just did. You know, just mount a folder, give co-work access to it. Um, and just like play around with it. It's it's super useful for cleaning up files, organizing things like that. Um, and so here it found these four receipts that I have. Um, it's asking me if uh one of the receipts, I guess, is missing a date. So, should it just rename the others? So I'll just say um you know for one it's we'll say it's like up to you and then for two I'll say uh don't rename it and we actually call this uh like reverse elicitation in the AI world. So so what this means is when the model is unsure about something it's going to ask you for clarification. Um and we've sort of taught the model to be pretty good at this. So instead of assuming if it's unsure about something it's just going to ask you And so yeah, in this case, so it renamed the receipts. So I'm just going to open this up to double check. Yeah, cool. And so the receipts are renamed a little bit better organized. And so maybe what I can try next is um let's like put this in a spreadsheet. >> So it takes control of your computer basically in that sense, right? If you allow it to take control. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And so we put like so much work into kind of safety and making sure that as this happens you don't you don't like accidentally shoot yourself in the foot and like delete files or whatever. Um so there's just like a huge amount of work that went into this and it kind of starts at the model side where you know for anthropic from the very beginning we were the AI safety lab and that's the reason that we exist. Um, and so there's a lot of work into like alignment and mechanistic interpretability and kind of all these ideas to to make sure that the model does what you want in a way that's safe kind of at the model layer. And this literally means like studying the neurons kind of the same way that you would study uh neurons in you know like in in the human. Um, and so we you know you can like identify structures and you can kind of study in a very scientific way as a black box also um to make sure that it's safe. So this is called alignment. Um, and then we do a whole bunch of other stuff. So there's actually a whole virtual machine running under the hood and this is just to make sure that any actions taken are safe and don't affect your broader system. Um and then as of last week there's also deletion protection. So if you accidentally delete something then um you're going to get prompted first. Um so the model can kind of make sure that that's actually a thing that you want to do. Obviously also as we start interacting with the internet something like prompt injection is quite scary and so we built in a lot of protections against that. Um, obviously, you know, is it's not perfect and it's something we're iterating on. Um, but this is also part of the reason that we released this pretty early is we want to see how people use it and a big part of making models safe isn't just studying them on a lab, but studying them in the wild um to see how it's useful. Um, and so this was like pretty cool, right? So, we we have this folder. Um, first it kind of renamed all all my receipts. I asked it to make a sheet. It just made this spreadsheet. So, it's already here. Um, maybe I don't want a spreadsheet. Maybe I want like a Google sheet. So, actually >> that's so interesting, right? Cuz like I think uh where people stumble with tools like co-working and cloud code is because you can do anything making it of course that makes sense making it a Google sheet. But like that's where it's so interesting that you can you really can treat it like a teammate in that sense, right? Like go and do this thing. The world is your oyster. Whoa. What is happening right now? Yeah. So, it's like it's opening the browser. Um, and so here it's going to ask me from for permission. Just for this demo, I'm going to say always allow for the site. Um, but you can just say like allow once or deny. And so, Quad's taking the wheel. Um, it's making a spreadsheet for me. Um, this is going to sort of take a while. And so, this is one of the things that we're iterating on is like making this kind of computer use a lot faster. I I remember like man this is like when I first joined Enthropic and this was maybe um this like sonnet 3.6 6 days or I forgot what what we called it like Sonic 3.5 new. Um and that was the first model that I think we really started to crack computers and I remember I was like sitting with my team and there was literally a researcher that ran into the room like in the movies and was like oh my god quad knows how to use computers and um we just had it like order a pizza and it uh it picked a pineapple pizza and then ordered it and it asked us for a credit card and then we we got that delivered to the office but it was tedious. it took like an hour or something for it to click around. And since then, we've been improving the model's ability to use a computer. Um, and so you can kind of see that here. So here the, you know, quad is typing and it's interacting with the spreadsheet and it can see what's on the screen. It can interact with it. Anything that's in your browser, it it can just use. And could it use like email, you know, let's say we wanted to send this to somebody, you know, finance team, like can you maybe we'll get into it later, but you know, with things like connections and MCPs, um, is that possible? >> Yeah. Yeah, totally. Okay. So, let's like let's make this like kind of a nice spreadsheet because we don't want to send like a badly formatted spreadsheet to our coworker. Um, but let's make it nice and then uh we can ask Quad to send it. And so, here it's kind of cool. It's like, you know, it's it's still early days and so there's some like formatting mistakes. It didn't paste it exactly correctly, but it noticed it. So notice that, you know, it's not actually split correctly. And so now it's trying to format it. Um, so kind of notice this. And yeah, Greg, like to your point, it's funny these like these use cases and the way that people are going to use these tools. Like I said at the start, it's going to be so surprising. Um, I'm just so excited to see how people use it. And sort of the crazy thing about them is they're so general purpose. It's like it's sort of like a computer itself or like the internet or something like like you said like when when you first like had an iPhone like you would never have predicted that you know there would be an Uber app at some point but you know that's that's what happened. Um and I sort of feel like we're at the beginning of that but for for agents. >> Yeah. I think uh it it it's it sounds so obvious in hindsight like of course you have a phone with GPS. Of course, right? You're gonna you're gonna have things like Uber and Door Dash and stuff like that. But I feel like yes, you're right. I think like what I'm trying to figure out in my mind, like I'm watching this and I'm like this is really cool, but I'm thinking about like okay, you know, how do I audit like my entire company? >> Like what are all the tasks that the company is doing? How are they interacting with files? And how are they using the internet? And how are they sending things? And then what are opportunities I can use to like make my team and also my life more productive? That's what's going through my head right now. >> Yeah. Yeah, totally. That's a great way to think about it. Um, and by the way, something that's kind of cool is, you know, as this is running, I'm just going to make a new task and do something else. Um, so you know what are some cool episodes? Uh, start up Cool. And so while while this one's running, we can like we can let this one go too. And I often have a bunch of tasks running in parallel, too. But yeah, that's exactly it. It's like you should just think about like what what's all like the tedious stuff that you do every day and you can just throw all the stuff to cowork. Um and I I feel like this happened for coding over the last year because of course engineers and you know programmers are the earliest adopters. So when the tooling first be became able to do that kind of work engineers adopted it first but you know now now this is coming uh uh now this is possible for everyone else to use too. So that's like that's super exciting. And when we talk to engineers about the way they like to use quad code you know they run a bunch of quads in parallel they use it to automate the tedious stuff. And I don't know, man. Like, for me, this is just the most fun I've ever had as an engineer cuz I get to do the stuff that I enjoy and I just feel so productive because Quad does all the, you know, the stuff that I didn't want to do. Um, okay. So, now we have this like we have the spreadsheet. This looks all right. It's not too bad. Um, the data looks correct. Um, you know, one thing that's missing though is, uh, uh, well, we we can add maybe like the totals, but I think for the sake of the demo, what I'm going to do is, um, I'm going to see if it can email it. >> So, just reading for our audio listeners, can you open Gmail and send the sheet to Amy? And Wow. >> Yeah. So, I'm going to say always continue. So, how is it going to know it's Amy, right? It's going to pull up the contacts within Gmail. >> Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, that that's exactly it. It's going to interact with it the same way that uh you know, anyone else would interact with a computer. And it's the same thing. It can it can like click stuff. It can read the screen. >> Okay. So, compose window open. Let me type Amy. So, you have like multiple when you're when you're like locked in, so to speak. you're kind of you have multiple of these windows open at or multiple multiple virtual machines open at at the same time. >> Yeah. Yeah. I usually have a bunch of these um you know like five or five or 10 or whatever. Um and so we can see the models, you know, trying to interact with this. And so it filled out Amy. >> And you know, by the way, just so because this is, you know, going on YouTube, you know, you're going to have some haters in the comments. So we're just going to address them right now. Someone in the comments is going to be like, "But that's so slow. I can do it faster myself or something." What is your reaction? >> Yeah, of course you can. Yeah. Um I could definitely do this much faster. And it's actually the same thing for a lot of quad code, right? Like especially at the beginning, I I could do it much faster. Um but but I think sort of two things happen. One is that uh the model just gets better at doing it quickly. And this is just something you would I I would expect over time. But then the second thing is because you can do multiple things in parallel, it's actually a big time saver. And so usually my workflow is I'll kick off, you know, like a few different tasks in parallel and I'll just kind of like go back and forth between them and kind of tend to my quads, make sure they're in a good place, see if they have any questions or anything like that. So it's really a different kind of workflow. Like I feel like now is the age of like kind of multi- multi- clotting of of paroism of like not going super deep on stuff but kind of being more of a generalist and more tending tending to your clouds. And so like this was this other chat that we kicked off earlier. Um and in this case it sort of did some research. So that's pretty cool. Um, so it didn't just go to, you know, like startup ideas podcast website, but it searched the internet, checked a bunch of different places, checked like someone's notes about it. Yeah. 10 10 rules for for quad code. Yeah, I'll find that interesting, too. And let's see. So, it seems like this is the email is probably all drafted. The draft has been saved. Yep. Please send. And I also use this for like Slack too. Like a pretty common use case I've been doing maybe a couple times a week is I have a spreadsheet where we track all the team's work for for the month or for the week or whatever. And instead of having to bug everyone on the team to fill out the status, what I do is I ask co-work to look at the spreadsheet, any column that's not filled out, just message the engineer on Slack. Um, and it does that really well. So, you know, I I just ask it to do that and then I go get a coffee and I I don't have to do that anymore. Do you think that co-work is going to be the gateway drug to cloud code? Because for a lot of beginners, nontechnical people, cloud code feels a bit overwhelming, but when I'm when I'm watching you do this, this feels, you know, approachable. >> Yeah. I I mean, I think it's like probably two kinds of users. Um Well, and it's also it's funny. Cloud code is built originally in a terminal and you know, now nowadays it's available in the Quad mobile app. It's available on the website, uh, in the IDE, on Slack, on GitHub. So, you know, nowadays it's available everywhere, but originally it was built in a terminal. And I never thought that most engineers would want to use a terminal cuz, you know, it's scary. It's like this thing that's sort of hidden away on the computer, like, you know, only the most hardcore engineers want to actually work in a terminal day in and day out. And so, it's surprising to me that most engineers wanted to use it. What's even more surprising is a lot of non-engineers started to use it. And that was the craziest thing. And you know looking at like the sales team at Enthropic, like the GTM team, half of them use quad code every week. Um, and looking at other non-technical people at Enthropic, like designers, product managers, data scientists, pretty much all of them use quad code every day. So that that's been like pretty surprising. But my hypothesis is what they would prefer is actually something a little bit more like this where you don't have to deal with a terminal and all that kind of thing. you have a you have a nice UI um because you don't need access to bash and all that kind of stuff cuz the the model will just do it for you. >> Yeah. I think what I would love with something like this is you know automating some of these processes. It's like instead of doing oneoffs, it's like anytime this happens, I want you to do this. >> That's my dream. >> Yeah, it's a cool idea. I'm excited to see like how it's tied into skills also. I think it's something we're we're thinking about. we haven't quite figured out yet. Um yeah, cuz like a skill, what what is it? It's essentially kind of a repeatable way to do something. And so you saw that a little bit earlier up in this conversation where um when Quad was generating the spreadsheet. Um I don't know if you saw, but it actually loaded the skill. >> And so we prepackaged the skill for Excel. And that's the way that Quad knows how to do it. Um, and so if you have some like weird file format, I don't know if you work with like AutoCAD or if you work with, you know, like Salesforce kind of what whatever it is the tool the tool that you use, you just make a skill and then quad can can do it for you. >> That's interesting. So if you have more skills, co-working it, you know, to do things related to those skills, co-workers is more likely to use those skills. So you might be able to get a better outcome out of co-work if you, you know, do some upfront work to actually create some skills. >> I think so. Yeah. >> Wow. >> Yeah, I think I think that's exactly right. >> Yeah. Okay. Well, that's good to know. And and you know, what else do we need to know about co-work? cuz I know there's, you know, there's, you know, extensions, there's there's skills, like walk us through some of is there anything else that, you know, we need to know in order to get the most out of of the product? >> You know, we we tried to build cowork just to be pretty simple. Um, when we think about the different audiences we serve for an audience like engineers, they don't actually like simple. Like simple is is good by default, but engineers love to hack their tools. They love to customize their tools. Um, so that's actually really important. So, Quad Code is just like the most customizable coding agent. It has just like so many extension points. There's like there's skills, there's custom agents, uh there there's hooks, there's a an insane amount of configuration and settings that you can set, you know, there there's a very sophisticated permission system. So, there's all sorts of ways to customize it. And this is because we know every engineer works different and everyone has different preferences. Everyone uses a different tech stack. Everyone uses a different editor. everyone use a different OS. So, we wanted to make sure it's really customizable. For some of my co-work, I think we're kind of starting in the opposite direction. Um, and just keep it really simple at the start. Um, and so if you use co-work, I would probably not customize too much. Like if you have co-work installed and you install the Chrome extension, that's pretty much all you need and it'll do everything else for you. I think over time as you find yourself using maybe software that co-work is not great at like that's the point to think about writing skills but that wouldn't be my starting point just start simple like you know see how it works see what's useful and I think also the other thing you know it's just it's so early this feels to me a lot like quad code a year ago where you know we released it before it was early it was not very good yet it was like super buggy it kind of barely worked like the model was not very good at coding a year ago And it kind of feels like that to me, but I think our work is actually a little bit better than quad code was when we first released it because it's actually useful and you know it's already a thing that I use every day. And um yeah, I think in the first week we've we've seen so much more growth. It's it's been like a multiple of the growth that we saw with quad code the first week. Um so that that's very exciting. It it seems like this is something that people are already finding useful. >> You know, we're recording this uh what is it? January 2026. If we if we come back here in 12 months, it's January 2027, how do you think people are going to be using co-work? You know, I know you don't have a crystal ball exactly, but what sort of use cases and and what is what does the product look like? Like describe the world in January 2027 with with co-work. >> Oh jeez, Greg. I I plan in like a oneweek timeline. The model is just changing so fast. It's it's so hard and I just feel like, you know, like the model is it's advancing exponentially and just like my puny human meat brain like can't grapple with exponential. It's like we think in lineers and so I think this kind of exponential is just very very difficult to plan around. Um okay, but if if I had to speculate um a year ago I made and I think Dario also made this prediction that by the end of the year people wouldn't be writing code anymore. And I think that was like sometime mid uh you know la last year or something in you know I I code every day. Uh I ship you know two 300 PRs every month or something like that. Uh and in the last two months quad quad code has written 100% of my code. I haven't written a single line by hand. And this is something like I also predicted this you know like way back middle of last year. It was sort of not intuitive because if you just think about kind of the experience at the time and you trace it linearly, there's just no way that the model would be at that point. So you really have to kind of believe in the exponential and just literally like plot it out and kind of follow the way that the line the line goes. That's the only way that you would have predicted this. And it was just it was absolutely right. And so I think for coding this is a work this is something that we're going to start to see in more and more places for more and more kinds of code that the model is able to just do all of it. And when we think about co-work I think it's somewhat similar. I think it's a little bit earlier. And I think what we're going to see is for all this kind of tedious tasks like you know like connecting app A and B or kind of shuffling data back and forth or or whatever the model is just going to be able to do it and it's going to get increasingly good at it. This is I think in some ways it's a little scary and in some ways I think it's really exciting because you don't have to spend your time on this toilome work anymore. You can just focus on the work that you enjoy. Um and also everyone I think just becomes much much more productive because you have an army of plots that that can do this. >> Okay. I like that feature. I like that feature a lot. Um it's a hard question. It's a hard question. um when you it's sort of like the genies out of the bottle and it's hard to predict like where the genie is going to go. So I believe that co uh co-work is the gateway drug to cla code. I think that people are going to uh start using it and they're going to develop like vertical use cases like for whatever it is their business is like you mentioned AutoCAD like you probably weren't thinking about AutoCAD when you were de helping develop Cobalt uh co-work so I think there's going to be like these verticals um and I think I think that co-work is going to be similar to like vertical job boards where there's very specific roles that you can hire to people. And I do think that there's going to be this uh combination between skills and these like digital teammates that you're going to quote unquote hire. >> Yeah, that's that's super interesting. Maybe we should make a bet and just see where it pans out in a year. You know, I I have no idea. Um but it it's it's definitely interesting to speculate cuz I I I just feel like the way this technology goes is so different than past technology waves. It's sort of similar to the internet. It's sort of similar to computers, you know, like maybe like telephones or something before that, but the speed is just so much faster. And because it's kind of piggybacking on all this, like the internet could not exist without telephones, uh, telephones and kind of like phone lines being everywhere. You couldn't have dialup without it. You know, mobile phones couldn't exist without the internet existing. Um, so it's sort of like every layer of the stack, it just gets more and more powerful and it spreads more quickly. And so it's like on the back of all of this that AI can exist. Um, and yeah, it's it's just gonna be very exciting to see to see where it goes. >> I want to shift gears just for the last 10 minutes. Um, because we mentioned Claude Code, you had a you had a post that went absolutely viral. I think you know what post I'm going to talk about. 99,000 bookmarks, which is crazy. And I'm going to share my screen. I want to go over it a little bit. >> This is me learning to use Twitter. I think I made an account like a decade ago and I haven't really used it. So, um, it's funny. Yeah, it's been fun to learn. >> You have like a just a few tweets, but like this, you know, this one, you figured it out. You say, "I'm Boris. I created Cloud Code. Lots of people have asked for how I use Cloud Code. So, I wanted to show off my setup a bit. My setup might be surprisingly vanilla. Cloud Code works great out of the box. So, I personally don't customize it much. There's not no one correct. There's no one correct way to use cloud code. We intentionally built it in a way that you can use it, customize it, and hack it however you'd like. Each person on the cloud code team use it very differently. So, here it goes. Could you just talk about some of the just expand on some of these and what you were saying, you know, what you were saying on here because I thought it was really interesting. >> Yeah, I'd love to. So, this first one, it's very similar to what I was showing in co-work now isn't to go super deep on one task. it's to do a bunch of tasks in parallel. And so, you know, in the when I'm working on quad code, I I usually work in a terminal um or on the mobile app. These are kind of the two services I use the most. Um but like I said, everyone on the team is different. Every user prefers something different. So, we build all of these. And so, usually what I do is I'll start a task in kind of one tab and once Quad is thinking about it and starting to work on a plan, I'll move on to the second tab and I'll ask it to make a plan for the second thing. Then, I'll move on to the third one. ask it to make a plan. And then finally, like when uh you know, I've run out of immediate tasks to do, I'll go back to the first tab. I'll see if the plan looks good, I might go back and forth a little bit. And then once the plan looks good, I usually go into just auto accept edits right away because I think with Opus 4.5, once the plan is good, the model can just execute it pretty much perfectly. This is definitely not the case with previous models. And so I think there was a lot of excitement about Opusport 4.5 in um you know over the last couple months and I I think this is kind of one of the big reasons it's just gotten very good at coding but also excellent at planning. So once the plan is good, the code is good. And so yeah, my my work now is just jumping between tabs, kind of tending to the clouds, make sure they're unblocked, answering their questions. With co-work, I think I think it's actually quite similar now. I like that. I'm going to I'm going to quote you on that. Once the plan is good, the code is good because that's so true, right? Because if you nail the plan, the code should, you know, the agent should do the work. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think like sometime last year, there was all this buzz about specri development. Yeah. >> And you know, it just feels like it's feels a little like too QT and like a little too rigid to me. But I think this is sort of a form of of spec driven development. It's like there there's some kind of spec, you know. I think it's just like a plan. That's all it has to be. It's just a text file. It doesn't have to be in a particular format. Once you have that, you're good. >> Number two, you say, I also run five to 10 clouds uh in in parallel with my local clouds. As I code in my terminal, I will often hand off local sessions to web using and or manually kick off sessions in Chrome and sometimes I will teleport back and forth. I also start a few sessions from my phone obviously from cloud iOS app. You got to every morning and throughout the day and check in on them later. What do you mean by that? This morning I kicked off I think like three quads as soon as I woke up. I just had like some thought in the morning about well maybe I should like build this thing or fix this bug or whatever. I was like checking Twitter and someone had a bug report. So I just opened my phone and you know in the Quad app you on on the left side you click the little menu and there's a code tab. Um so you can just like access quad code there. That's what I use for a lot of my code. And it's funny I I never would have guessed that this is the way that I code. If you ask me a year ago I would never have predicted that the way I code now was like probably half of it is just on my phone and it sort of just works. Um and then web is kind of the other part. So once I've run out of tabs cuz it's just like you know it's kind of a pain to manage a bunch of different good checkouts cuz in each tab in my terminal I actually have a totally separate git checkout and I don't really use work trees or anything like that. I just keep it pretty simple. Um and in web if I if I just ran out of terminal tabs I'll start like overflowing to web and and starting tasks there. >> Beautiful. So yeah, I also I so recommending use iOS, use web, open multiple like that's what that's you'll get the most out of it that way. >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and we have a Android app now too. So yeah, just like use the mobile app and see how far that can take you. Um if it's not giving you good results, also make sure that you tune the environment setup and make sure that you invest in your cloud.md. That's super duper important and I talk about that in number four also. >> Mhm. Number three, you say, "I use Opus 4.5 with Thinking for Everything. It's the best coding model I've ever used. And even though it's bigger and slower than Sonnet since you have to steer it less, and it's better at tool use, it's almost always faster than using a smaller model in the end >> and cheaper. It's sort of counterintuitive." And I had to explain this to people a few times, but because the model is smarter, it actually uses less tokens in the end. and uh it uses so many less tokens, it's often cheaper than using a smaller, less intelligent model even though the per token cost for that model is lower. So a little counterintuitive, but yeah, just use the smartest thing if you can. >> Well, we appreciate that, you know, we appreciate that. Uh number four, our team shares a single CloudMD for the claude code repo. We check it into Git. The whole team contributes multiple times a week. Anytime we see Claude do something incorrectly, we add it to the MD so Claude knows not to do it next time. Other teams maintain their own Claude MDs. It is each team's job to keep theirs up to date. And the CloudMD is just a text file. So there's no special format. People ask this all the time. Is there some special format that it has to be in it? No, it's just like it's just a text file. So you can put whatever you want in it. This is a screenshot of our QuadMD. This is literally it. So just really simple. And you know, you you could format this kind of however you want. >> Love it. And then finally, I think, yeah, number five. Oh, no, you have a you got a few more. So, uh, number five, during code review, I'll often tag at.cloud on my co-workers PRs to add something to the cloud MD as part of the PR. We use the cloud code GitHub action uh, for this. It's our version of Dan Chipper's compounding engineering. What What do you mean? What is compound engineering? Yeah. Oh my god. So, there's actually like two bugs in this tweet. I think I think Dan actually calls it compound engineering, not compounding engineering. And then the atqu this is me learning how to use X. Um, but it's actually at Claw. There's there's no dot. I just didn't I think there's like an actual user or something whose name is Quad. I didn't want to attack them. Um, but yeah. So, so what you do is in quad code, you run this /command/install GitHub action. And what this does is it installs the Claude app in your GitHub repo. And what that lets you do is you can then appment mention Claude whenever you want and just have it make changes. And uh it can just work on PR. So it'll push back to your branch and it'll push the changes right back. You can also tag it on issues. You can tag it kind of wherever. I do this multiple times a day. It's it's really really useful. I think one of the most common use cases is just like little fixes. I think the other one is updating the quadmd um to keep the knowledge base up to date. And you know, you should never have to comment about something twice. Um, back when I was at Meta, something that I did is, um, this is like in a in a previous life, in a previous job, something that I did is every code review that I did, I would keep a spreadsheet of all the issues that came up and whenever the same kind of issue came up again, I would just like to up the spreadsheet and whenever something hit, I think like five or 10 or something, I would write a lint rule. And what that is is it's a way to automate that part of the code review so I don't have to comment about it again. And that was back in the days before OM and before the model was any good at coding. And so this is the equivalent nowadays. You just tag cloud and you have it update your cloudmd which is your team's knowledge base. So really simple. And what this means is you don't have to point anything out twice. I'm curious to see what this looks like for co-work. I don't think we figured that out yet. >> But definitely for cloud code, cloudm is kind of the this is the one the one thing that you should all be updating all the time. >> Love it. Number six, most sessions start in plan mode. If my goal is to write a pull request, I will use plan mode, go back and forth with Claude until I like its plan. From there, I switch into auto accept uh edit edits mode and Claude can usually oneshot it. A good plan is really important. >> Yeah, like I said, planning is just the most underused feature in Quad Code. Actually, a lot of people use it, but I I would say it's still underused. I use it for almost all my sessions. Yeah, it's it's a no-brainer. So, if you aren't already doing this, please do. Um, do we've got you know, we're not going to have time to do all of them. What are the I don't think cuz you have a hard stop. Do you want to pick one or two to end with? >> Yeah, let's do um let's do maybe number 13. Um yeah, number 13. I think this is probably in in addition to using opus for when people ask about how to get better performance out of quad code there's three things that I recommend almost every time number one is use opus 4.5 with thinking always don't try to use a different model because opus will just give you better results and more efficiency overall the second thing is make sure you have a good quad and then the third thing is this this tip number 13 which is give cloud a way to verify its output and so we we just kind of saw with co-work how good cla is at using the Chrome extension in order to write email and in order to work with uh sheets. And it's exactly the same thing. If I'm building an app, I always use the Chrome extension to have Quad test its own work. And if Quad can verify its own output, the result is going to be way way better. And it it's sort of like um you know, imagine that you're a painter and you're you know, you you make paintings and they have to be like pretty good. they have to be maybe even like photorealistic or something um or just like you know some kind of like very detailed uh style and uh you you're you have to wear a blindfold. You're just not going to be that good. It's not going to come out that great. Whereas the same thing for an engineer like if you have to write code but uh you can never run the code or you can never see the output and you can never see the website. It's just not going to be good. And so it's the same thing with quad. Um, as the model gets more intelligent, that first shot is going to get better and better. But really, you want to give it a way to verify the output and it'll be much better. So, this is like running tests if you're an engineer, uh, starting a server also if you're an engineer or, you know, seeing seeing the output in a simulator or in a browser. >> Amazing. And the ultimate tip, I guess, is just get your hands dirty, right? I >> think that's it. Yeah. I mean, there's no right there's no one right way to use this stuff. Like, you know, see see what's useful, see what's not, find your own workflows. It's sort of I I heard someone describing quad code as like a find your own path book, you know, like one of those books where you have to like do you do you go to the dungeon or do you explore the forest like this kind of thing or or like a like an old like RPG video game. It's just kind of like that. It's like it's very free form. There's no one right way to do it. So, just see what works for you. Boris, I appreciate you taking the time, the generosity to spill the sauce and just to share with us how we can get the most out of both uh co-work and claude code. Everyone's thinking about it and everyone's trying to especially on this podcast, you know, the startup ideas podcast, you have millions of people who are trying to figure out how I can be more productive and how I can build businesses around some of these things. So, thank you. Thank you for the time. Um, I'll include links on where to follow Boris. He doesn't tweet a lot, but when he tweets, it's it's worth paying attention to. And I just have I want to leave with one thing just because my audience would kill me if I didn't ask this. So, as you know, Boris, I'm from French Canada, and we speak French, obviously, in French Canada, and I call Claude Clo. Am I the only one? Oh man, you're probably not the only one. A lot of the a lot of the world speaks French. Which one sounds better? What what feels right? >> I mean, to me, Clo sounds better. It's like Jean Clo Vanam, even though people would say John Claude Vanam. It's like that's my take. That's my hot take. To me, it sounds better. >> Oh, you know, Greg, I I'm going to Today around the office, I'm just going to call it Clo and we'll we'll see what people say. I'll I'll report back. >> Okay, report back. All right, sounds good. Boris, thanks again for coming on and I'll see you next time.